Weather talk

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dvenardos

Re: Weather talk
« Reply #40 on: 14 Feb 2010, 05:18 am »
Solar panels are a great option for the western states, and wind for the midwest. If a company is willing to lease to you for zero cost and sell to you electricity at todays prices and lock that price in for the life of the panels, that aught to tell you something.
« Last Edit: 14 Feb 2010, 06:17 pm by dvenardos »

Danny Richie

Re: Weather talk
« Reply #41 on: 14 Feb 2010, 09:23 pm »
Quote
Solar panels are a great option for the western states, and wind for the midwest. If a company is willing to lease to you for zero cost and sell to you electricity at todays prices and lock that price in for the life of the panels, that aught to tell you something.

Buying electricity at current market cost or "todays prices" will be just as high as what is currently being paid. The idea is to get off the grid from a dependency stand point and lower our electricity cost.

HAL

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Re: Weather talk
« Reply #42 on: 14 Feb 2010, 09:41 pm »
When the Nanosolar folks have full production capability, I would think that the cost per cell price would come down to levels that are more affordable for everyone.  The other issue is that they can produce enough quantity to keep up with demand.  Pretty cool technology if they can keep it going.

http://www.nanosolar.com/

Danny Richie

Re: Weather talk
« Reply #43 on: 14 Feb 2010, 09:46 pm »
BTW, we got another light dusting of snow again this morning.  :o

HAL

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Re: Weather talk
« Reply #44 on: 14 Feb 2010, 09:51 pm »
They are calling for another 6" of snow here starting tomorrow evening.   :o

nickd

Re: Weather talk
« Reply #45 on: 15 Feb 2010, 05:15 pm »
we hit 80 degrees on the patio Sunday (San Diego) and it looks like it might be that nice for a few days.

Perfect weather for speaker building!

Hey Danny, are the 12" woofers on the way to your place yet? :drool:

 

dvenardos

Re: Weather talk
« Reply #46 on: 15 Feb 2010, 08:29 pm »
At first you argued that it would cost 2-3 times as much so we can't do it, now your argument is that since it isn't cheaper we can't do it?

A zero cost lease is a way to do it with no capital outlay on the consumer end. As electricity prices rise and your cost stays the same you save money. Or, if you prefer you buy your own system, but that requires a capital outlay on the part of the end user. As solar technology improves it is just going to get better. We only need to harvest a tiny fraction of the energy that is delivered by the sun in order to meet all of our power requirements. There is no reason not to start today. Just like tomorrows computer will be better and cheaper, at some point you have to say let's do it and just buy one. A time when unemployment is around 10% seems like a pretty good time to encourage an infrastructure changeover to a source of energy that will be with us for the lifetime of our planet.

Buying electricity at current market cost or "todays prices" will be just as high as what is currently being paid. The idea is to get off the grid from a dependency stand point and lower our electricity cost.

Danny Richie

Re: Weather talk
« Reply #47 on: 15 Feb 2010, 11:33 pm »
No you don't understand.

I thought you meant that they sell you the power at current market value.

If the utility companies start paying cap and trade taxes that make the electricity two or three times higher and the Solar panel company is matching prices (current market value) then it doesn't make any difference.

If a person can't afford to pay a $500 or $600 a month heating or cooling bill to begin with then it wouldn't matter who they are paying. If you can't afford it then you can't afford it.

m-fine

Re: Weather talk
« Reply #48 on: 16 Feb 2010, 12:13 am »
The production and disposal or solar cells is energy intensive and polluting. You also need significant suplimental power for peak times, nightime and cloudy days. The types of power plants that can handle wildly variable demand are less efficient and higher polluting, and storage systems (batteries) are also an eviromental nightmare. Solar is hardly a solution, just a different problem that does not have the media attention or mass awareness yet.

dvenardos

Re: Weather talk
« Reply #49 on: 16 Feb 2010, 01:41 am »
Danny, what you are describing would be bad. That is not what I am suggesting. I am saying that the current economics of solar energy allows a real for profit company to lease and install solar panels for free and they lock in the electricity rate at today's prices and they don't go up. That is a great deal and it says that solar is economically viable today.

We don't need new taxes, what we need is a level playing field. Currently we spend billions on oil and gas subsidies (aka tax breaks).

No you don't understand.

I thought you meant that they sell you the power at current market value.

If the utility companies start paying cap and trade taxes that make the electricity two or three times higher and the Solar panel company is matching prices (current market value) then it doesn't make any difference.

If a person can't afford to pay a $500 or $600 a month heating or cooling bill to begin with then it wouldn't matter who they are paying. If you can't afford it then you can't afford it.

Matt, you don't get off the grid you are hooked into the grid. When your panels are producing energy (which also happens to be during peak electrical usage) the meter runs backward. At night you are getting power from the grid and your meter runs forward. All of our plants currently have to plan for peak usage during the day and a massive drop off at night.

As far as the environmental impact:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es071763q
Quote
Photovoltaic (PV) technologies have shown remarkable progress recently in terms of annual production capacity and life cycle environmental performances, which necessitate timely updates of environmental indicators. Based on PV production data of 2004–2006, this study presents the life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions, criteria pollutant emissions, and heavy metal emissions from four types of major commercial PV systems: multicrystalline silicon, monocrystalline silicon, ribbon silicon, and thin-film cadmium telluride. Life-cycle emissions were determined by employing average electricity mixtures in Europe and the United States during the materials and module production for each PV system. Among the current vintage of PV technologies, thin-film cadmium telluride (CdTe) PV emits the least amount of harmful air emissions as it requires the least amount of energy during the module production. However, the differences in the emissions between different PV technologies are very small in comparison to the emissions from conventional energy technologies that PV could displace. As a part of prospective analysis, the effect of PV breeder was investigated. Overall, all PV technologies generate far less life-cycle air emissions per GWh than conventional fossil-fuel-based electricity generation technologies. At least 89% of air emissions associated with electricity generation could be prevented if electricity from photovoltaics displaces electricity from the grid.

The production and disposal or solar cells is energy intensive and polluting. You also need significant suplimental power for peak times, nightime and cloudy days. The types of power plants that can handle wildly variable demand are less efficient and higher polluting, and storage systems (batteries) are also an eviromental nightmare. Solar is hardly a solution, just a different problem that does not have the media attention or mass awareness yet.

HAL

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Re: Weather talk
« Reply #50 on: 16 Feb 2010, 02:31 am »
I would only do an online PV system as well as maintaining a battery system is not easy or inexpensive. 

The CIGS technology cells are much easier to produce than the ones that Don mentioned. The materials are Copper, Indium, Gallium and Selenium.  Very little CIGS material is needed to make a cell and it is basically printed on thick aluminum foil backing.   

The latest project they are attempting is building solar cell shingles with the Nanosolar technology.  Your roof is literally a solar array.  This is to work toward the new ruling for CA to have 10% of all energy for new construction having alternative energy sources, if I read it correctly.

Looks like a very interesting alternative to normal solar cell technology.

m-fine

Re: Weather talk
« Reply #51 on: 16 Feb 2010, 05:53 pm »
Keep your eye on the growing stream of evidence that the UN IPCC's studdies and forecasts are not just bunk but also corrupted. No global warming for the last 15 years, temp declines since 2002, false data on glaciers in Himilayas, false report of a study on the Amazon. 

I would much rather we focus on cutting out dependence on foreign oil than attack domestic coal and CO2. I would much rather we focus on clear water, clean air and solid waste where the science is beyond reproach and not debated by anyone rather than CO2 where the science is full of holes and contradictions.

As for solar, keep in mind that the economics only make sense where there is a lot of sunlight year round. The Northeast, Midwest, northwest, and to some extent even the southeast, have different break even economics than sunny California.  Replacing my entire roof with todays solar panel tech would reduce but not cover my summer power load, and would barely touch my winter needs. When you can literally go weeks without direct sunshine, solar is never going to be any more than a suppliment.

As for freezing rates, no private company will do that. Assuming someone could give you solar power much cheaper than the grid, they will still charge just a
bit less than you power co. There will be just enough price gap to get you to switch, but the NEED to try to make a maximum profit. Any investor will have to guard against a third competitor who may be even cheaper, or a drop in price from traditional sources. If it takes 15 years to pay back the panel installation cost and 5-10 years in someone else steals your customers, you are royally screwed.  With such a big potential downside, no private company can afford to cap the upside.   

Danny Richie

Re: Weather talk
« Reply #52 on: 16 Feb 2010, 06:10 pm »
Quote
I would much rather we focus on cutting out dependence on foreign oil than attack domestic coal and CO2.

You hit the nail on the head right there.

dvenardos

Re: Weather talk
« Reply #53 on: 16 Feb 2010, 09:01 pm »
As for freezing rates, no private company will do that. Assuming someone could give you solar power much cheaper than the grid, they will still charge just a
bit less than you power co. There will be just enough price gap to get you to switch, but the NEED to try to make a maximum profit. Any investor will have to guard against a third competitor who may be even cheaper, or a drop in price from traditional sources. If it takes 15 years to pay back the panel installation cost and 5-10 years in someone else steals your customers, you are royally screwed.  With such a big potential downside, no private company can afford to cap the upside.

Dude, there is a company that is already doing just that. Look at the link and read about it for yourself.

We don't need taxes, what we need is a level playing field (I would like to see a simple tax code and make all subsidies go away for personal and business), a little ingenuity, and some determination.
Solar City will install a solar panel on your house that you lease for the current cost of electricity from your provider, you pay them for the amount of electricity produced by the panels instead of the electric company. It is a matter of ramping up production to meet demand so that they can service a larger area.
http://www.solarcity.com/residential/solar-lease.aspx

How is promoting solar and other alternative energies attacking domestic energy providers? It seems you guys aren't really listening and are just attacking what you think I am saying, which is totally different from what I am actually saying.
Did I say that we need to tax anyone, did I say we need to attack domestic coal power plants? How do you propose reducing our foreign oil dependence if we don't focus on alternative, renewable, domestic energies?

Danny Richie

Re: Weather talk
« Reply #54 on: 16 Feb 2010, 09:09 pm »
Quote
Did I say that we need to tax anyone, did I say we need to attack domestic coal power plants?


No, no, we were not at all directing that at you. We are in agreement with YOU. What was said was in response to, let's call them "others", that have ideas to do such things.

I for one think it to be not such a great idea to produce the power in one place then cable it three or four hundred miles (or a lot more in some cases) to the next place. How horribly inefficient.

It makes more sense to produce it where you need it.

If each house was supplemented with solar and wind generators then it sure would lighten the load on the grid.

Danny Richie

Re: Weather talk
« Reply #55 on: 16 Feb 2010, 09:41 pm »
BTW, I just called Solar City.

They just opened their Texas based office yesterday.

At current rates they can save me $13 a month. It also involves a long term lease. I am having them e-mail me all the data on it so I can take a good look at it.

Nick77

Re: Weather talk
« Reply #56 on: 16 Feb 2010, 09:46 pm »
BTW, I just called Solar City.

They just opened their Texas based office yesterday.

At current rates they can save me $13 a month. It also involves a long term lease. I am having them e-mail me all the data on it so I can take a good look at it.
Do you own anything at the end of the lease? 10yrs??
I was thinking about calling them to see if they had made it to Texas yet.  :green:

dvenardos

Re: Weather talk
« Reply #57 on: 17 Feb 2010, 12:22 am »
BTW, I just called Solar City.

They just opened their Texas based office yesterday.

At current rates they can save me $13 a month. It also involves a long term lease. I am having them e-mail me all the data on it so I can take a good look at it.

Cool.  :green:
I really like the Volt idea. Solar/wind providing supplemental power, plug your car in at night to get better round the clock utilization of the grid. Current utilities produce electricity at an efficiency of around 300-350 mpg, so when running off battery you are getting great effective gas mileage (even if getting all your power from the grid), yet still have the gas backup for long trips. Better all around utilization and massively decreased need for oil/gas.

Do you own anything at the end of the lease? 10yrs??
I was thinking about calling them to see if they had made it to Texas yet.  :green:

No, just like a car lease. From their website:

Quote
When your SolarLease ends, the power is still in your hands. You can upgrade to a new system with the latest solar technology. You can also extend your lease in 5 year increments or simply have the panels removed for free.

jules

Re: Weather talk
« Reply #58 on: 17 Feb 2010, 01:31 am »
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I have some bad news for you guys invested heavy in solar panels though. They don't last 20 years in my experience,

nickd, I guess there's going to variations between different brands of solar elec. panels but I can report from personal experience that the bank of 8 solar panels on my roof are now over 30 years old and are producing only slightly less than their original rating. They do not collapse suddenly and on current performance I'd guess they are good for another 10 years.

If HAL is correct in suggesting that panels will soon be available that offer 1 watt for $1 [as against the current cost of about $10 per watt] it becomes a market determined no brainer to use some solar power as an adjunct to home electricity supplies.

jules

HAL

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Re: Weather talk
« Reply #59 on: 17 Feb 2010, 02:05 am »
nickd, I guess there's going to variations between different brands of solar elec. panels but I can report from personal experience that the bank of 8 solar panels on my roof are now over 30 years old and are producing only slightly less than their original rating. They do not collapse suddenly and on current performance I'd guess they are good for another 10 years.

If HAL is correct in suggesting that panels will soon be available that offer 1 watt for $1 [as against the current cost of about $10 per watt] it becomes a market determined no brainer to use some solar power as an adjunct to home electricity supplies.

jules

Got my fingers crossed that they finally have home solar panels available for install at those prices!