Addition of subwoofers..

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es347

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Addition of subwoofers..
« on: 11 Feb 2010, 12:44 am »
I have committed the apostasy of apostasies: adding a pair of subwoofers to supplement my VR5 Anniversaries.  Even though my VR5s can get down to 20 hz with ease in an anechoic chamber, it's an entirely different ballgame in my listening room.  After moving my speakers to every conceivable position only to find that all produced annoying standing waves, I did finally find a placement that yielded "flat" (no humps) down to 63 hz where things dropped off and stayed there.  So after much googling and a few phone calls, I settled on a pair of Velodyne Optimum-12s.  I was advised by a gentleman at Velodyne to go with the Optimum series rather than the DD series due to their newer technologies; technologies that will be employed in the updated DD series later this year.  I ran the subs' on-board EQ programs then checked SPLs at my listening chair for freqs from 20 to 200 hz.  We are now flat to within +/- 1.5 db which to my way of thinking ain't bad at all.  I can honestly say that this addition has produced a much bigger soundstage and enhanced the listening experience without any sacrifice to the uncanny integration of the VR5s drivers...it remains essentially a point source of sound (thanks to one Albert Von Schweikert  :thumb:).  Pictures:








Delacroix

Re: Addition of subwoofers..
« Reply #1 on: 11 Feb 2010, 03:40 am »
Gavin

Very interesting -- I don't have subs but my one real experience listening to them in a dealers set-up convinced me that the addition of subs is less about adding strength to the bass frequencies than it is about freeing up the main speakers, with the results you mention, a much freer soundstage overall and a sense of ease that is hard to replicate otherwise. Can you outline in a bit more detail the research and thinking that led you to the Velodynes rather than others? And have you tried one on its own rather than the pair? Inquiring minds love living vicariously off others' experiences and wallets :)

drphoto

Re: Addition of subwoofers..
« Reply #2 on: 11 Feb 2010, 05:51 am »
Pretty system and room, I'm sure it sounds great. You might want to experiment w/ moving the subs around, so that you have a non symmetrical arrangement. You might find it smooths out room modes even better.

Curious about the guitars. The yellow one, could be any number of things, but the red one has me baffled. What amp do you use for those.

es347

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Re: Addition of subwoofers..
« Reply #3 on: 11 Feb 2010, 06:05 pm »
I experimented with one sub and it sounded ok but in researching this came to the conclusion that two 12s are better than a single in creating more expansive soundstage and that 2-12s are better than going with a single 15".  They probably do at least as good a job as the 15" in pressurizing my room and, if it really is important, deliver the low frequencies in stereo as opposed to mono.  The smaller drivers should be faster and better controlled, again a reason to go with dual 12s rather than a single 15 or even a pr. of 15s.  There are subs out there that suffer from the one note bass syndrome and from everything I have read and have now experienced with the Velodyne Optimum-12s, they simply do not fall in that camp.  Since I drive them from line level outputs on my preamp I can turn off my monoblocks and just listen to the bass coming from the subs and they are very tuneful and well controlled.  Not a hit of boominess.  Once you get used to hearing your music with them in your system, you realize just how important that low stuff really is.  The review I am attaching compares these little guys to the much more expensive spreads and it was a pretty compelling story for me...these are a mere fraction of the cost of the big boys.

http://www.10audio.com/velodyne_optimum_12.htm

es347

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Re: Addition of subwoofers..
« Reply #4 on: 11 Feb 2010, 06:18 pm »
Pretty system and room, I'm sure it sounds great. You might want to experiment w/ moving the subs around, so that you have a non symmetrical arrangement. You might find it smooths out room modes even better.

Curious about the guitars. The yellow one, could be any number of things, but the red one has me baffled. What amp do you use for those.

The yellow one is an FGM-100 Ibanez (Frank Gambale signature model); the semi-hollow body is a Gibson ES347 and the red one is a Peavey bass.




Don_S

Re: Addition of subwoofers..
« Reply #5 on: 11 Feb 2010, 09:30 pm »
Delacroix,  Those are my observations as well.  Unfortunately in many (most?) systems the main speakers are still played full-range and full-volume at their lowest frequencies due to a lack of crossover capabilities between the mains and subs.  I am a firm believer that using subwoofers to reduce the bass output demand on the main speakers allows the main speakers to be more articulate on the upper bass and mid-bass.  Of course some speakers benefit more than others and it is probably more of a benefit for two-way speakers rather than 3(or more)-way designs.

For my tastes I prefer quality over quantity so I like to use subs to reduce the bass demand on the main speakers rather than just for bass augmentation.


Very interesting -- I don't have subs but my one real experience listening to them in a dealers set-up convinced me that the addition of subs is less about adding strength to the bass frequencies than it is about freeing up the main speakers.......

ceedee

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Re: Addition of subwoofers..
« Reply #6 on: 11 Feb 2010, 11:07 pm »
Hi Gavin,

Wow, nice pics.

I know what these Velodyne-subs can move you to.

Did you met Albert's new Shock Wave 12" already?

No? Shivering.

Regards,

Cor

fplanner2000

Re: Addition of subwoofers..
« Reply #7 on: 12 Feb 2010, 03:25 am »
Gavin-
At what frequency are you crossing the subs with your 5's?  As you know, I've had a bit of experience with this myself and am no longer using my sub in 2-channel.  Depending upon your answer here, I may start playing with the sub a bit. 

You can't go wrong with Velos - they were talking about having the new replacements for the DD's ready towards the end of last year, but I guess the economy, etc. slowed them down a bit.  Did you talk to Carl in AZ?  Very nice guy and very helpful.

McTwins

Re: Addition of subwoofers..
« Reply #8 on: 12 Feb 2010, 07:53 am »
Hi Gavin.

I would like to know how you measure the freq response. If you measure with SPL and using pink noise and octave bands then you really don't see much, by meaning that you don't see between the octave bands freq. And what about the reverberation time at those freq. By adding subs dosen't remove the modal resonances, you just reinforce the modal problems in your room.
Thanks

es347

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Re: Addition of subwoofers..
« Reply #9 on: 12 Feb 2010, 05:03 pm »
Gavin-
At what frequency are you crossing the subs with your 5's?  As you know, I've had a bit of experience with this myself and am no longer using my sub in 2-channel.  Depending upon your answer here, I may start playing with the sub a bit. 

You can't go wrong with Velos - they were talking about having the new replacements for the DD's ready towards the end of last year, but I guess the economy, etc. slowed them down a bit.  Did you talk to Carl in AZ?  Very nice guy and very helpful.

70 hz...I spoke with Curt.

es347

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Re: Addition of subwoofers..
« Reply #10 on: 12 Feb 2010, 05:07 pm »
Hi Gavin.

I would like to know how you measure the freq response. If you measure with SPL and using pink noise and octave bands then you really don't see much, by meaning that you don't see between the octave bands freq. And what about the reverberation time at those freq. By adding subs dosen't remove the modal resonances, you just reinforce the modal problems in your room.
Thanks

I used my trusty Radio Shack SPL meter and a S'phile test CD with freq bands from 20 to 200 hz.  You are correct that there could be nodes in between the bands but I don't plan to get any more anal about this than I already have.  I have found that you can drive yourself nuts when you start measuring things so I have done all the measuring that I plan to do and have reverted to using my ears.  I like what I am hearing now and have resigned myself to leaning back and listening rather than the endless tweaking.  I do appreciate you input though McTwins!

Albert Von Schweikert

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Re: Addition of subwoofers..
« Reply #11 on: 29 Mar 2010, 03:30 am »
Dear VSA customers,
Due to the overwhelming demand for a high quality subwoofer to be used with our small UniField Model 1, (a 7" two-way coaxial in small vented box), we have engineered a mid-sized subwoofer to be shown on our website in the middle of April. It will be called the ShockWave V-12 and will feature an extremely high speed transient response, close to theoretical speed limitations of moving coil drivers. Here are the particulars for those who are interested in augmenting their speakers with a subwoofer in the future:
a) Cabinet is sealed and features 3" (75mm) damping on the interior, based on the UniField sandwich cabinet; dimensions are 18" x 18" x 18" with front-firing woofer and removable grill. Overall weight is 136lbs.
b) Woofer is built by Diamond Audio and has push-pull dual 3" voice coil design, with overall weight of 32 lbs, most of that is magnetic assembly, with composite metalized cone and enormous excursion potential (2" peak-to-peak).
c) Amplifier has Sliding Bias design with 1,000-watts of output, using Class A/AB design and Toroidal transformer with a huge analog power supply. A parametric equalizer is provided to tune the sub to your room, along with RCA stereo inputs for 2-channel use along with a LFE input for home theater processors.
d) MSRP is $3,995 each and is available in either Steinway Hi-gloss Piano Black finish or wood veneers.

Although this design was developed for use with VSA speakers, it sounds incredibly coherent with our reference Quad 989 electrostatic speakers as well.  Production was started about 4 weeks ago, so the units are now in stock and beta testing is in Phase Two. Please call if you wish to become a beta tester, (951) 696-3662.


Delacroix

Re: Addition of subwoofers..
« Reply #12 on: 29 Mar 2010, 03:39 am »
Wow...18" x 18" x 18" and 136lbs....this is some serious sub!!! I'm intrigued by what this would do with a pair of VR5s....not just any pair, though...mine specifically! Someone, please report on how it all sounds.....

jimdgoulding

Re: Addition of subwoofers..
« Reply #13 on: 29 Mar 2010, 04:01 am »
Way to go, Gavin!  Some things of interest to me mentioned above are a) the expansion to Gav's stage- b) being able to roll off the bass drivers in the main speaks- c) use of 3" voice coils in Albert's new sub(s).  I am imagining the super potential and it's way good.

JackD201

Re: Addition of subwoofers..
« Reply #14 on: 29 Mar 2010, 03:45 pm »
Wow...18" x 18" x 18" and 136lbs....this is some serious sub!!! I'm intrigued by what this would do with a pair of VR5s....not just any pair, though...mine specifically! Someone, please report on how it all sounds.....

A pair of em could bring you a couple of steps closer to this..........




ceedee

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Re: Addition of subwoofers..
« Reply #15 on: 29 Mar 2010, 09:59 pm »
If you are looking for a "one box solution" this is probably the best step to go.
« Last Edit: 30 Mar 2010, 01:01 pm by ceedee »

Delacroix

Re: Addition of subwoofers..
« Reply #16 on: 30 Mar 2010, 02:06 am »
Thanks Jack -- that's all I need to know -- more steps up on the never-ending journey.

Hey CeeDee, I think the 'one box solution' is looming for all of us in the long run ;) But before that day, I intend to listen to a lot more music - sub or no.

es347

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Re: Addition of subwoofers..
« Reply #17 on: 30 Mar 2010, 12:55 pm »
A pair of em could bring you a couple of steps closer to this..........



Perhaps even a pair of Velodynes. :scratch:

ceedee

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Re: Addition of subwoofers..
« Reply #18 on: 30 Mar 2010, 01:06 pm »
Hi Gavin,

The only link is the "V" :roll:

Within a few weeks I receive the new Shock Wave and see feel and hear the differences.
Albert is very entousiast (as ever) about the tuningsytem in the SW.

Can't wait to combine the SW with the VR 5 SE which is ready in our studio.

Which pricelevel is your "V"elodyne?

Regards,

Cor


stong

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Re: Addition of subwoofers..
« Reply #19 on: 30 Mar 2010, 01:48 pm »
Hi Ceedee ,Jack or Gavin,

Kindly advise how you hook up the sub to link with your Speakers if there is no sub-woofer output on the pre amp?

I extract this from internet,is this the way to go ie a pair of speaker wire from power amp to sub and another pair of speakers wire from power amp to speaker:-

{If your stereo does not have a subwoofer output jack, there is an alternate hookup method. Some powered subwoofers are able to take the speaker-level signals from the amp and extract the bass sounds. Run some speaker cable from the left and right outputs of the speakers to the push terminals on the subwoofer. Inside the speaker, the amplification circuitry will combine both channels to mono, extract the bass frequencies, and amplify the sound for the subwoofer speaker}.

Please advise.

Thank you