Great Instruments

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James Tanner

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Great Instruments
« on: 9 Feb 2010, 03:04 am »
Hi Keith and Don,

Educate me - what makes a great drum set and a great guitar?

james

drummermitchell

Re: Great Instruments
« Reply #1 on: 9 Feb 2010, 04:49 am »
Hi James I timed out after all that.For me a drumkit is the heart of the music is she's sounding good,tuned up(tension right) for that style of music,it just makes it.It seems when a drummer has a great sounding kit,it just brings the music together.A snare is a personal pc,a snare is kind of a signature sound that stands out.For me it's a real nice bearing edge,that the head sits on and also the trueness of the shell(roundness ect).I like to get a nice crack(rimshot) out of my snare that cuts thru
the music.Snare wires also which come in different strand widths,8,12,16 even 40 strand,depends on
how much of the snare sound you want and less of the drum.I like some snare sound but also the character sound of the drum with that crack.I use a 79 wood Gretsch snaredrum(mapleshell)nice warm sound,but she'll cut thru the music when necessary.A 60s ludwig metal(chrome over brass)
a 60s Gretsch chrome over brass and a Noble&Cooley-aluminum cast alloy snare.John Bonham used a ludwig chrome over brass,Charlie Watts(Gretsch metal snare).Metal snaredrums were very popular years ago and then wood snares and out popped picollo snaredrums(3-3 and1/2" deepX14"Wide,before those5-5and1/2 to 6 and 1/2
X14 were the ones.It all depends on the music as a drum(if you can pull it out)has a character of
it's own.Heads can make a huge difference as some will give you a open sound,darker sound or
controlled sound.there's a lot out there as far as different heads and it also depends on how you tension the drum.Also usually the bottomhead on the snare drum(snareside is usually thinner that the top for snarewire resonating and also for tone.
A few guys I like that have a great snare sound would be David Garibaldi(Tower of Power)gets a nice(crack)rimshot out of his snare,Stewart Copeland(Police)and there are many more.
If you listen and I'm sure you do James,it's that snare that really stands out in the music.
All in all a true drum shell,bearing edge and some one that can bring out the magic in her.
A different snare for a certain style or sound of music,maybe that's why Keith has so many guitars
and amps.Some have a character where they fit better with certain music than others.
it's a good thing we have a few as you never know what style you'll be playing.
I believe the Gibson 335 is a popular guitar for blues.
 Just as the Ludwig supraphonic 400 snare drum has been the most popular snare for years as she fit in with all styles of music from the 50s on up to today.
Kinda like Bryston, they definately fit in with any style of music :thumb:.


James Tanner

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Re: Great Instruments
« Reply #2 on: 9 Feb 2010, 11:49 am »
WOW thanks Don – it just goes to show you that in almost every area there is subtleness and degrees of performance that only a very few who are ‘aficionados’ of the particular interest understand and appreciate.

It reminds me of a friend of mine who came over to my home and listen to one of my systems and was aghast when I told him how much it cost.  Knowing he was an avid outdoorsman and hunter I asked him how much he paid for his best shotgun.  He says  “a good one is about $5000."  I say – “well I can buy a shotgun for $69.95 why would I pay $5000?”  15 minutes later after he explained the reasons – my comment - : “case closed”

James
« Last Edit: 9 Feb 2010, 06:04 pm by James Tanner »

1oldguy

Re: Great Instruments
« Reply #3 on: 9 Feb 2010, 02:09 pm »
Hi James

  As far as guitar goes the action is a big deal.Everybody's hands are different.Bigger hands are usually better as it allows you to do things that would be cumbersome otherwise.Jimi Hendrix and Stevie Ray Vaughan both had big hands thus allowing them to use the thumb while making cords.I've also noticed that guys with long slinky fingers tend to be great speed players.As for myself I have two broken thumbs I kid you not.lol So I guess the speed thing is out for me. :green:
  Eric Clapton once stated that he hates a guitar that has the action get noticeably higher towards the bridge.While to a degree this is a must with modern playing styles when taken to an extreme it tends to slow the playing down.While I can't speak for Eric I find that it tends to throw off my playing.For some blues artists they really shine with a high action.Personal choice once again.
  Then you have options as to the coating on the guitar.Some purists just have bare wood.Most guitars today (Electric) have polyurethane while old school guitars tended to have nitrocelouse.
  Some guitars have big frets,great for bending strings into next week while smaller lower frets make cording easier.The key is to find the balance like most things in life.
  Then there is the issue of weight.General consensus is that the heavier a guitar is the longer it will sustain.Example of this are the very heavy Les Pauls.Though there are ways around this by effect pedals but I would think that having a guitar sustain as long as possible naturally is always desirable.
  One of the problems today is one the average run of the mill guitars is that the wood hasn't been cured long enough.I find this especially bad with guitar necks as they tend to not be as stable as previous years.There is a lot of tension on an electric guitar once tuned and if the wood isn't cured long enough then a slight warp in the neck can be enough to trough ones playing off if one has a finely tuned playing style.Hover for some they may not even notice it.
   The hardware to plays a part.Again weight and type of material does play a part
Then there is the issue of what one is willing to pay.Eric Clapton's  guitars may be worth upwards of 20 grand or more with the very best making his guitars for him.While Stevie Ray Vaughan's guitar was second hand.
  Then there is intonation.Then is when a guitar sounds in tune over the entire area of the neck.
When looking to  acquire a guitar two things stand out first and foremost.1.How does it feel playing it regardless of sound.2,Sound.
For the fussy(as some call it) it can take a long time to acquire the guitar that is best suited to the individual.At the end of the day that's what music is about making it your own unless of course one is content to be a clone.
My 2 cents.
« Last Edit: 9 Feb 2010, 05:05 pm by 1oldguy »

James Tanner

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Re: Great Instruments
« Reply #4 on: 9 Feb 2010, 03:02 pm »
Thanks 1oldguy - gee's I'm leaning a lot!

james

srb

Re: Great Instruments
« Reply #5 on: 9 Feb 2010, 03:36 pm »
While there is good information in those posts, they would be even better if they were more easily readable!
 
The spacebar (for space between sentences) and the Return key (for space between paragraphs) are lonely.  ;)
 
Steve

FullRangeMan

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Re: Great Instruments
« Reply #6 on: 9 Feb 2010, 05:36 pm »
I like guitars with Alnico pickups in two Celestion 12inches(Alnico of course) combo amp.

95Dyna

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Re: Great Instruments
« Reply #7 on: 9 Feb 2010, 08:08 pm »
While there is good information in those posts, they would be even better if they were more easily readable!
 
The spacebar (for space between sentences) and the Return key (for space between paragraphs) are lonely.  ;)
 
Steve

I agree, Steve.  Reading emails without proper spacing and punctuation is like listening to someone talking with his mouth full.  Did you ever read one of those 16th century English novels where a sentence and a paragraph are one in the same?  No wonder most of us are not up on our Shakespeare!

Bill

KeithA

Re: Great Instruments
« Reply #8 on: 9 Feb 2010, 10:10 pm »
James

Brandon has touched on the topic, so I'll just add a bit to that.

One thing is for sure...if you think that 'personal preference' is supreme when it comes to choice in audio...you can multiply that by a factor of 100 when it comes to guitars :lol: :lol:

What makes a 'great' guitar will certainly depend on the individual. But there are some basics that will be common to just about everybody.

Action/Intonation

No matter is a guitar is $5,000 or $500...if the height of the strings and their setup don't allow the guitar to be played easily (and in tune), then most guitarists will quickly strike it from their 'must have' lists. Similar to audio, most times you get what you pay for and the more expensive guitars play well since there's a lot of TLC put into fret finish, neck finish, nut dressing, etc. This is part of the reason for the elevated prices.

However, sometimes you can find a 'cheap' guitar that just plays better than it should for the $$. These days, these are the Chinese/Korean/Indonesian imported guitars.

These types of guitars (any guitar that is set up well and sounds good) are generally referred to as 'player' guitars in that no matter how 'pretty' they are thay are great workhorses and can be relied upon to get the job done. In the past these are the guitars that you'd see players identify with for many years (Clapton's black Strat/ Billy Gibbon's Les Paul "Pearly Gates"/ Van Halen's striped 'Frankenstein' guitar)

Tone

The 'Other' biggie :D This is the sound of the guitar and, of course, the elusive mystery that can't really be explained...but just is (similar to audio, eh :o) Most times the tone of an instrument comes down to (i) the wood used for construction and (ii) the pickups.

Certain woods are considered, in general, to be 'better' for tone than others. For example, Korina wood is generally considered to be a warmer wood for tone purposes and is generall well sought after in new and vintage guitars (now there's a hot topic...vintage :lol:). There are varied types of woods that will give you the desired end result, whether one wants a warm tone or a bright, spanky tone. It is common for guitar necks to be made from maple. However, the front part (the fingerboard) will usually be made from maple or rosewood. It is generally considered that rosewood is warmer in tone than maple. So, if you want a 'country' guitar, well, that's an ash-bodied Telecaster with a maple neck. However, the wood alone doesn't tell the entire story. A guitar is 'a sum of parts' 8)

Next there are pickups. This is one of the main area where 'tweakers' will change out parts of their guitars to alter their 'tone'. There's a lot of magic and mojo here....and a little basic science. Some people prefer humbucker pickups for a more compressed, distoted sound. Others prefer the single-coil pickups for a more dymanic response. Big area of 'personal taste rules' :D If you want to sound like Mark Knopfler playing Sultans of Swing...well that's a Stratocaster with single coils. If you want to sound like Randy Rhoads and Crazy Train, the humbuckers will serve you better. The other big factor here is amplification.

Vintage

Different than audio, in recent yaers there has been huge movement that 'Vintage guitars sound better than new ones'. In the 1970's there was a period when old guitars were frowned upon and you couldn't give them away. Not so today. Before the 'Market Meltdown' in 2008/2009, a 1959 Sunburst les Paul in good shape would fetch about $250,000 :o A 1950's Stratocaster would be in the $50,000 range, etc. These are considered by many to be the 'Holy Grails' and are the desire of many. Unfortuneatly, most of these guitars are bought by rich investors who buy them and store them.

So, a simple way to sum up is that many players consider the old stuff (vintage is better). However, if they have to live with new stuff, it needs to play well and sound good. Some people hold a guitars costetics in high esteem. Some say a great guitar is one that has a 'nice top', meaning a nicely stained figured wood top (flame maple, quilted maple, etc).

There are too many factors to list. You could write a doctoral dissertation on it :lol: And then when that's done.....we can move on to something even more 'controversal'...what makes a great amp :o...there's a lot of discussion about tubes in that one :wink:

Keith

pjchappy

Re: Great Instruments
« Reply #9 on: 9 Feb 2010, 10:40 pm »
I'm sure I'll write some more general comments later (too busy working now. . .blah!). . .but, all the stuff that makes up a guitar still does not determine it's tone.  A lot of tone comes from the player's fingers.  Different pressure, different technique, whatever.  A great guitarist can make a piece of shit guitar sing!  Just set the guitar up to his liking and voila!



KeithA

Re: Great Instruments
« Reply #10 on: 9 Feb 2010, 10:47 pm »
I'm sure I'll write some more general comments later (too busy working now. . .blah!). . .but, all the stuff that makes up a guitar still does not determine it's tone.  A lot of tone comes from the player's fingers.  Different pressure, different technique, whatever.  A great guitarist can make a piece of shit guitar sing!  Just set the guitar up to his liking and voila!

Absloutely....but the question was what makes a great guitar 8) I will certainly agree that the player is the biggest factor that ultimately determines 'the tone' or sound a person gets.

However, the qualities of the player does not completely rule out the construction of the guitar for it's element in 'the tone'. After all, you will always refer to the wood guiatrs are made from as 'tone wood', as a generalization.

Billy Gibbons is a great player and one of my favourites. He would sound like Billy if he played a $10 ukelele :lol: But he would be the first to tell you that Pearly gates is the foundation of 'the tone' :wink:

But i agree with you 100%.......the biggest factor in 'tone' is the player.

Keith

pjchappy

Re: Great Instruments
« Reply #11 on: 9 Feb 2010, 10:59 pm »
Oh, no doubt guitar construction makes a difference, too.  However, I think many of your amateur musicians think they can sound like their hero buy copying their hero's gear.

IMO, you are going to notice MUCH more of a difference due to tonewoods, etc. in a semi-hollow body electric and especially so in acoustic guitars, then you will in a solid body electric.  However, the combination of those tonewoods and construction that create a "great guitar" is highly subjective. 

As with some audiophiles, price and looks may influence their ears and fingers as to what makes a guitar great.  Along those lines, there are several different models of Gibson Les Pauls.  Now, you can have basically 2 identical Les Pauls side by side, with the only differences being one has a fancy "AAAA" veneered top, binding and other fancy and expensive ornamentation.  Next to it, is a satin top with no binding.  Everything else being the same, including set-up, these guitars should sound nearly identical (I say nearly identical because regardless, a guitar is going to sound a little different because the wood doesn't come from the exact same tree, etc.).  One may have preconceived notions about either guitar and when they pick up and play one and compare it to the other, they may feel the much more expensive LP is "great."  If their preconceived notions led them to believe the more expensive guitar sounded better and played better, then to me, that's foolish.  Now, if for them part of a guitar being "great" also includes fancy woods and ornamentation, I have no problem with that. . .but I am not like that.

I had a chance to briefly play an 80 year old Martin 00 body (something like that. . .forget the model) about a year ago.  I was amazed at the tone coming out of that thing.  For a smaller bodied guitar, it had deep bass that had this subtle "growl" to it that was just amazing.  Due to the fact that it didn't even have a truss rod, it has to be strung up with light or extra-light strings (forget which). . .and it still had amazing low end.  I believe the back and sides were made with Brazilian rosewood (the owner said it was a type of wood they stopped using in the '60s, due to inavability/conservation, etc., so I may be wrong on the wood type).  Now, did that type of wood have something to do with the sound?  I'm sure.  Did the fact that it had been sitting around for 80 years "aging" give it the right mojo?  I'm sure that had a bit to do with it, too.  The damn thing had some slight cracks in the top, too that were repaired 40 some odd years ago.  Either way, that is a great guitar!

One thing I have heard is many vintage guitars were made with "slow growth" woods.  Such woods are no longer available and the wood may have resulted in the tone of these vintage guitars. . .and has made them so desireable. 

I have 2 Fender Stratocasters.  A made in Mexico (MIM) one from ~1998 and a cobbled together one, made from 2008 USA Fender nitro body and a 2008 Fender Deluxe neck.  I find myself playing my MIM Strat more often.  Sounds great and plays great!  So, you don't necessarily have to spend a lot of money to get a great guitar.

On a side note, both my Strats are upgraded with Callaham hardware.  His trem block makes a dramatic difference compared to the stock one. . .especially so for the MIM Strat.  HIGHLY recommend Callaham hardware upgrades for any Strat owner.  If you have a MIM Strat, you will simply be amazed at the difference.  (Of course, this is for Strats with trems and not hard-tailed Strats. . .but even if you block your trem, it will be a major upgrade. . . and get you closer to a great guitar, or make a great guitar even better!)  www.callahamguitars.com

This topic just makes me want my next music equipment purchase NOW!!!  A Gibson ES335.   :drool:


Absloutely....but the question was what makes a great guitar 8) I will certainly agree that the player is the biggest factor that ultimately determines 'the tone' or sound a person gets.

However, the qualities of the player does not completely rule out the construction of the guitar for it's element in 'the tone'. After all, you will always refer to the wood guiatrs are made from as 'tone wood', as a generalization.

Billy Gibbons is a great player and one of my favourites. He would sound like Billy if he played a $10 ukelele :lol: But he would be the first to tell you that Pearly gates is the foundation of 'the tone' :wink:

But i agree with you 100%.......the biggest factor in 'tone' is the player.

Keith
« Last Edit: 10 Feb 2010, 12:40 am by pjchappy »

Stu Pitt

Re: Great Instruments
« Reply #12 on: 9 Feb 2010, 11:17 pm »
WOW thanks Don – it just goes to show you that in almost every area there is subtleness and degrees of performance that only a very few who are ‘aficionados’ of the particular interest understand and appreciate.

It reminds me of a friend of mine who came over to my home and listen to one of my systems and was aghast when I told him how much it cost.  Knowing he was an avid outdoorsman and hunter I asked him how much he paid for his best shotgun.  He says  “a good one is about $5000."  I say – “well I can buy a shotgun for $69.95 why would I pay $5000?”  15 minutes later after he explained the reasons – my comment - : “case closed”

James

It reminds me of my father and his bikes.  He looked at me like I had 3 heads when I told him my Rega Apollo cost $1k.  'What a waste of money.  I can get a good CD player for $50.'  Reply - 'Yeah, and can get a good bike for $150, without needing 6 different ones at $1k a piece.'

Case closed.  Everyone has something 'stupid' they 'waste' their money on.  Stereos, bikes, and on and on.

pjchappy

Re: Great Instruments
« Reply #13 on: 9 Feb 2010, 11:28 pm »
As Keith mentioned, a good set-up is also key.  I feel it's important for every guitar player to be able to fix their guitar problems, to an extent.  I do everything myself, except major repairs and fretwork. 

Neck adjustments (truss rod), bridge/saddle adjustments (intonation on an electric), string height, saddle filing (on acoustics) are all things I have undertaken on my own with great success (also swapping out electronics / pickups and adding electronics to my Martin dreadnought). 

At a minimum, a guitarist should know how to make truss rod adjustments (both electric and acoustic) and intonate (electric) his guitar.  Knowing how to tune and restring a guitar goes without saying. 

One thing not to overlook regarding a "great guitar" are strings.  Different guage strings and different types of strings (more so for acoustic guitars regarding the different type) can help get the sound and synergy you are seeking.  Right now, I have 80/20 bronze Elixir nanoweb medium guage on my Martin.  I have tried 5 or 6 different types of strings and so far, these have been my favorite by a fairly large margin.  Before that, I gave D'Addario EJ19 phosphor bronze medium guage strings a shot for quite awhile, based on a recommendation.  Just didn't have the "life" I was looking for.  I have used other Elixir strings (different metals), but they were a bit too bright (from what I recall).

As for intonation, a good, highly accurate tuner is very important.  I will be buying a strobe tuner for this soon (as soon as it's in stock).  www.turbo-tuner.com  (I want the non-stompbox version)  Here is a video of the stompbox version vs. a more expensive Peterson stompox strobe tuner:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bY9H7ec6_0

Again, setting up a guitar to your liking is key.  When you know how to make proper adjustments, you can tweak and tweak until it's just right, for you.  I still try slightly different things, but have found I like a fairly low action and an almost straight neck (slight forward bow).  Setting up a guitar to your liking will make any guitar, regardless of how it's made or what it's made of, sound and play better.

I'm definitely no great guitarist, but it is definitely something I really enjoy.


Paul
« Last Edit: 10 Feb 2010, 12:30 am by pjchappy »

Bear Heath

Re: Great Instruments
« Reply #14 on: 9 Feb 2010, 11:55 pm »
Hi Keith and Don,

Educate me - what makes a great drum set and a great guitar?

james

James,

Mandolin Brothers at this link  http://www.mandoweb.com/Default.aspx
is a very fun and educational site. The writing is fun and you can learn alot about the history of certain makes.

Sean

KeithA

Re: Great Instruments
« Reply #15 on: 10 Feb 2010, 12:13 am »

I'm definitely no great guitarist, but it is definitely something I really enjoy...
Paul

I'm no great guitarist either...I enjoy it too   :D and there are some Great Guitars in here :wink:


Here's SOME of my gear :oops: :oops:








and on the way :D




Keith







pjchappy

Re: Great Instruments
« Reply #16 on: 10 Feb 2010, 12:16 am »
I hate you, Keith.   :drool:


 :lol:

KeithA

Re: Great Instruments
« Reply #17 on: 10 Feb 2010, 12:25 am »
I hate you, Keith.   :drool:


 :lol:

I get that a lot  :lol:

keith

1oldguy

Re: Great Instruments
« Reply #18 on: 10 Feb 2010, 12:54 am »
1oldguy with 2 broken thumbs  :green:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sg4Vnwg6Rc

pjchappy

Re: Great Instruments
« Reply #19 on: 10 Feb 2010, 12:59 am »