[charmerci]

    The purpose is to increase the moment of inertia of the assembly of arm/cartridge so it has less propensity to rotate about its long axis.
     Brett

I'm not positive - that why I'm asking this question. Wouldn't that be better done by just increasing the mass - both the cartridge and the tonearm?

Or maybe I have the two backwards?

[Wayner]

It's from the shape of the 45/45 degree modulated record grooves that causes the tonearm/cartridge/stylus to want to sway from side to side.

FYI, the Longhorn weighs in at 7.5 grams for anyone interested in that specification.

I also have one Gold Longhorn and one Green Longhorn in stock.

Wayner

[Lefty052347]

The bar balances the cartridge similar to a long pole balancing a tightrope walker.

Regards,
Dean

[Brett Buck]

I'm not positive - that why I'm asking this question. Wouldn't that be better done by just increasing the mass - both the cartridge and the tonearm?

Or maybe I have the two backwards?

Just adding mass would work,  but it would take a disproportionate amount of mass at short distances from the rotation axis to get the same effect. The moment of inertia goes up with the square of the "radius of gyration", meaning, how far the mass is located from the rotation axis. To get the same effect without the bar, you need tremendously more mass, which causes other issues. Too heavy and it won't follow warps, eccentricities, etc, as well. That's at least as important as the effect you are trying to correct.

    Of course it has been well know for probably a century that the compliance of the cartridge and the mass and inertia of the tonearm/cartridge can be/should be matched, but that's a different issue than the one we were discussing.

     It's a miracle, in many ways, that records work as well as they do, picking up tiny 10,000th of an inch motions in a very soft, springy medium out of huge, fractions of an inch low-frequency motions with some semblence of accuracy.

     Brett

[rcag_ils]

From the old Audio Basics article on the longhorn, the picture shows the bar's mounted on the lower part of the cartridge body, since I couldn't memorize every article, I thought the bar was mounted in the middle, my mistake.

[Birdbrain]

Wayner,
I'm excited that you've started making these carts again. Even more excited because you have a VPI HW19jr w/ AQ arm, and so do I. How does your cart sound on that table? Any hum troubles, etc.?
I've been using a Shure V15vMR, brushless and with the stylus assembly superglued to the cartridge body, since 1988. Original stylus and still sounds great, but I've always been curious about the Longhorn, and I know I'm going to have to break down and get a new cartridge some year. The good news is I can probably sell the Shure on eBay for enough to cover the new cart.

[Wayner]

Wayner,
I'm excited that you've started making these carts again. Even more excited because you have a VPI HW19jr w/ AQ arm, and so do I. How does your cart sound on that table? Any hum troubles, etc.?
I've been using a Shure V15vMR, brushless and with the stylus assembly superglued to the cartridge body, since 1988. Original stylus and still sounds great, but I've always been curious about the Longhorn, and I know I'm going to have to break down and get a new cartridge some year. The good news is I can probably sell the Shure on eBay for enough to cover the new cart.

Great timing Birdbrain!

Today was an historic day, for me at least. I made Frank's Longhorn Gold. Talk about pressure. Making stuff for the master, that the master invented is a pretty large shoe to fit. However, he did not get any special treatment (like I made his like I've made all of the others), except this time I didn't wipe out a stylus, like I did yesterday. That was an unfortunate oops, but I knew one day it was going to come, just not this early. Now I have a new extraction procedure. someone was wondering about the difference in cost for the 2 different models, well AVA just had to eat a replacement stylus for a gold. A bit more expensive then the Green. And of course, Murphy's Law says you will screw up the more expensive one.

I played the Longhorn Gold for about 2 hours today before I shipped that to Frank, along with a complete CAT-TWO cartridge alignment kit, and I must say the Gold is a very satisfying cartridge. Well balanced, didn't overload on heavy passages, nice sense of "air" and lots of little "sparkly" detail, along with a solid bottom end. And my new "test" turntable is the Technics SL-Q2 for the time being. It has a removable headshell, that I have permanently affixed some nuts, to make the alignment and audition process a bit quicker.

I actually install the cartridge, check the anti-skating with my ACT (Anti-skating Calibration tool) disc, and listen to a couple of sides before it's packaged up and shipped. This process is my way of quality control, and if we find any problems, it's fix it before it's shipped.

With the Longhorn in place, the supplied stylus guard can not be used, so we have created our own special packaging method to protect the stylus. Always open the end of the box that has the name (Grado Green1 or Grado Gold1) and keep that side up. as you open the package, you will see what we have done.

Now to Birdbrain's question. No I haven't had time to put a Longhorn in the VPI yet, but it's coming soon. The next Longhorn Gold I do, I will put it in that one to see how it does. I'll assume your worried about hum issues. We'll find out.

By the way, here is a short list of tables from members that say they run a Grado with no problems:

Linn LP12
Dual 1229Q
Technics 1200mk2
Technics SL-Q2

AR XA and XB
SOTA Comet
Sondek
Ariston RD-11
Systemdek IIX


Wayner     

[Birdbrain]

Wayner,
Thanks for the quick reply. Sorry to hear about the lunched stylus. Will check back to see how it goes with the VPI. I assume you don't use the clamp w/ the Longhorn.

[ohenry]

FWIW, I have used a Green with a VPI Jr with a Sumiko MMT arm and no hum issues arose.   

[rcag_ils]

someone was wondering about the difference in cost for the 2 different models, well AVA just had to eat a replacement stylus for a gold. A bit more expensive then the Green. And of course, Murphy's Law says you will screw up the more expensive one.

Frank explained that the higher longhorn mod cost for the Green was due to the higher reject rate of the Green. I am not sure what that means, I interpret it as the Green has a higher internal failure rate and may show up on your final test.

However, Frank did not say that the higher longhorn mod cost for the Green is due to the longhorn modifier's mishap that may take out the stylus. If that was the case, that would be unjust to have other longhorn Green buyers to cover the cost of the occasional mishap by the maker.

I am assuming that during the longhorn mod process, the stylus would be taken out and put back in after the mod finished, then it would have been just like replacing a stylus, longhorn or no longhorn.

[Wayner]

Frank explained that the higher longhorn mod cost for the Green was due to the higher reject rate of the Green. I am not sure what that means, I interpret it as the Green has a higher internal failure rate and may show up on your final test.

However, Frank did not say that the higher longhorn mod cost for the Green is due to the longhorn modifier's mishap that may take out the stylus. If that was the case, that would be unjust to have other longhorn Green buyers to cover the cost of the occasional mishap by the maker.

I am assuming that during the longhorn mod process, the stylus would be taken out and put back in after the mod finished, then it would have been just like replacing a stylus, longhorn or no longhorn.

First of all, please stop trying to figure out Frank's pricing. My comment was only reflecting on the nature of this kind of work, and the risks involved, like unplanned mishaps, the bring negative value to the overall profits of the product.

Taking out the stylus is not just an exercise, it is part of the modification process, as we do internal damping of the stylus itself and to the coils inside the cartridge body.

You may not realize this, but the customer pays for everything. When banks fail, you pay higher interest rates. When someone steals from Walmart, all of the customers pay higher prices. What ever product you buy anywhere, it has lots of very complicated formulas built in, to account for all sorts of things.

Do you consume beer? Why is a 12 pack about $12 and a case $24 $21? You paid more for getting less, and in this case the 12 pack of beer cost was $1.00 per can. In the case example, the cost was $.875 per can. At the grocery store the other day, they had a special on 2 bars of soap. At first, it looked like a great deal. After comparing the cost of the 4 pack, the 4 pack was cheaper per bar. Get my point?

Wayner 

[ohenry]

Hey Wayner,
Just how are you guys going to spend all of that Longhorn windfall?  Jeez!

 

[Wayner]

That wasn't the end of the Wizard of Oz. Dorothy woke up and realized the whole thing was a big dream. She was at home in Kansas with all of her loved ones, and never left, after all. Audio by Van Alstine has been in business for 35+ years, delivering quality products at real earth prices with more then reasonable warranties and is still here in Minnesota. I feel bad that a few have to be so fascinated with the pricing of these 2 particular products.

Wayner   

[avahifi]

Otis, if you went to the Grado web site you might notice that Green cartridges are selected from Black/Green internal structure assemblies and the Golds are also selected from Gold/Silver internal assemblies.  But the Gold selection standards are significantly higher.

We want all our cartridges to be the best we can do, thus our own internal selection process is more stringent.  Grado has done most of the work for us for the Golds, so the yield will be much higher.  Thus the built in higher price for the Longhorn Greens, our yield is just not as good, and with many we don't find that out until the darn thing is completed.

Now, no more snotty comments here please.  I note that the powers that be have already picked one of yours out and set it to the waste bin, and that was done without my knowledge or suggestion.  However - - - -

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[rcag_ils]

Do you consume beer? Why is a 12 pack about $12 and a case $24 $21? You paid more for getting less, and in this case the 12 pack of beer cost was $1.00 per can. In the case example, the cost was $.875 per can. At the grocery store the other day, they had a special on 2 bars of soap. At first, it looked like a great deal. After comparing the cost of the 4 pack, the 4 pack was cheaper per bar. Get my point?

I get part of your point, the examples you listed are high volume items, too high of an inventory on such items kill the profit, they need to push them out the door as fast as possible.

For low volume items such as "custom built" audio product, often time prices are jacked up before discounts are given. I am speaking from personal experience, it really happened, I ended up paying more as if I would have just paid for the pieces individually and separately.

OK, no more macro economics 101, I've made my point. I still like the AVA product.

[tull skull]

Hey Wayner,

I had an idea regarding the assembly and wanted to get your thoughts on it.

 Do you see any advantage or disadvantage to cutting two parallel slots with a razor saw into the face of the cartridge? These of course, would allow the u-channel to be pressed into the body of the cart.

I am sure this would be highly cartridge dependent but it seems like the actual attachment method would have more integrity.

Thanks for your time.

[Wayner]

This technique I would not recommend. The problem is first, contamination of the inside chamber of the cartridge, and second, the accuracy of the cuts, and third the "kerf" of the cut. When I had trouble finding the channel, I had some different ideas to get the job done and the channel is the best shape so far.

I do appreciate your ideas, keep them coming.

Wayner 

[guest1632]

It's from the shape of the 45/45 degree modulated record grooves that causes the tonearm/cartridge/stylus to want to sway from side to side.

FYI, the Longhorn weighs in at 7.5 grams for anyone interested in that specification.

I also have one Gold Longhorn and one Green Longhorn in stock.

Wayner

Hi Wayner,

So what is the difference between the two cartridges stock, and  and modified? So if you have to replace the stylus of the cartridge, do you have to modify the whole thing again?

can't see and for some reason having trouble imagining what this looks like.

Also, will this work on oother cartridges too? It's funny reading that article, because I just happen to have a Micro Accoustics cartridge sitting in its box? Should I send it to you?

Ray Bronk

[jtwrace]

can't see and for some reason having trouble imagining what this looks like.

Ray Bronk

See page 3 post #41

[guest1632]

Otis, if you went to the Grado web site you might notice that Green cartridges are selected from Black/Green internal structure assemblies and the Golds are also selected from Gold/Silver internal assemblies.  But the Gold selection standards are significantly higher.

We want all our cartridges to be the best we can do, thus our own internal selection process is more stringent.  Grado has done most of the work for us for the Golds, so the yield will be much higher.  Thus the built in higher price for the Longhorn Greens, our yield is just not as good, and with many we don't find that out until the darn thing is completed.

Now, no more snotty comments here please.  I note that the powers that be have already picked one of yours out and set it to the waste bin, and that was done without my knowledge or suggestion.  However - - - -

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

Hi Frank,

Just curious, why did you pick those two particular Grado cartridges? Was it felt that it was a bang for the buck issue or what? I am in no way questioning your choices, but was just wondering about those two cartridges?

Ray Bronk