LONGHORN GOLD1 AND GREEN1 CARTRIDGES NOW AVAILABLE!

rcag_ils · « **Reply #20 on:** 10 Feb 2010, 08:26 pm »

I apology for the result of my inacurate assumption, but I don't apology for the assumption that I made initially. Consumers are entitled to make pre-purchase judgement, whether if they are right or wrong, and it's part of the process that consumers have to go through, to derive to their buying decision, and business should not take offense by it.

There would have been much less negativity for this thread, if other readers hadn't jumped all over this so quickly.

Grado Prestige series are good cartridges, and I personally have three, if the longhorn can make further improvement, then they'd definitely be worth the money.

Again, Frank, thanks for the clarification, and sorry for the misunderstanding.

Wayner · « **Reply #21 on:** 10 Feb 2010, 09:19 pm »

AVA has a one year warranty on all Grado Longhorns and a 30 day money back guarantee. Of course, damage by mis-handling, etc is not covered. I'm pretty sure if you read the fine print from any other dealer, there is no warranty, or returns,,,,,at all,,,,,,ever.

Wayner

avahifi · « **Reply #22 on:** 10 Feb 2010, 10:20 pm »

Otis, your statement that "I take issue with is the idea that adding a Longhorn bar fundamentally changes the character of an inexpensive Grado" is simply wrong!

You sound like the famous Enid Lumly of Stereophile who once told me that there was absolutely nothing that anyone could ever do with a Dyna St-150 chassis to make it sound any better. She also despised digitally recorded programs because she thought they caused the analog pressings from them made into records to cause micro-cracks in her Linn turntable bearings. There is always someone negative about anything.

The Longhorn bar is not the only thing we do to the Grado to make it work much better.

Please stay out of this thread until you hear a new Longhorn Green or Gold.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

ohenry · « **Reply #23 on:** 10 Feb 2010, 11:43 pm »

I'm a big fan of Frank's longhorn/damping idea that he generously shared. It really does transform a good cartridge into something special. I've done a few of the Greens and have actually heard the results!

Wayner and Frank are kind enough to offer this mod again for little return, IMO. It seems to fall into AVA's traditional high value, no nonsense approach to good sound.

weirdo · « **Reply #24 on:** 11 Feb 2010, 01:19 am »

Could you give the novice a primer on what this product is. I currently have a Grado Green on my dedicated LP to CD conversion table, a cartridge that I consider the best budget cartridge I have ever had, and I am curious on how the product is improved by yous guys. Thanks, dk

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #25 on:** 11 Feb 2010, 01:50 am »

There's really not much on the market today between $199 and $299 (new) with high output.

Yeah, you have a bevy of inexpensive Audio-Technica's, a couple of fine Denon's, some Goldrings, a Shure and a Sumiko or two (perhaps I missed a couple)...but, not much out there these days.

The Grado's change rather remarkably from the Longhorn mod(s)...much more than a simple bar and some internal damping would suggest. I Longhorned a couple other cartridges and I didn't note the betterment the Longhorn had for the Grado's.

I think when you improve the Grado tracking ability, to unlock all the richness that they offer.

If I was in the market for a Longhorned Grado right now - I'd be only too happy to turn my money over to Frank for one. If you don't already know Wayner - he's rather, ummm, precise with mechanical measures so you're apt to get a superlative job for your hard earned cash.

I've found that with advances in digital technology in the past few years....a Longhorned Grado and a good direct drive machine are the only tandem I've found that is more consistently satisfying that digital playback these days. btw, I'm the Facilitator for the Vinyl Circle - so it pains me greatly to say that CD/digital is viable high fidelity source now

Good luck on your old/new venture - John

cdorval1 · « **Reply #26 on:** 11 Feb 2010, 02:12 am »

I will be ordering a new Longhorn. Probably the Gold. My experience is this. Several years ago I bought a Grado Green (then $60), meaning to Longhorn it one day. I listened to it for several months in my very old Linn LP12. It sounded pretty good--balanced, detailed--and it tracked well. I eventually did all the Longhorn mods, and the difference was immediately very noticeable. Most especially, there was much greater bass extension, and it was very natural sounding. Also, there was much more detail, without a bit of shrillness or high-frequency "boost" that seems so common with cartridges.

By the way, I've had no problem with AC hum with the Linn. I'm lucky, I guess.

Craig

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #27 on:** 11 Feb 2010, 02:44 am »

TCG has it right about Wayner's precise measurements. Just look at the cartridge alignment protractor he offers.

I've not heard a Grado in a number of years, but I have fond memories if my old Dual 1229Q fitted with a Grado. That thing made music and was affordable as all get out.

BTW not all MCs are bright. Check a Zu DL103. Of course, it's not high output, and it's not $300 either. The Longhorns do appear to fill a void in the marketplace.

dB Cooper · « **Reply #28 on:** 11 Feb 2010, 03:10 am »

Quote from: Otis on 10 Feb 2010, 09:09 pm

Longhorn bar'd or not, they still sound dark, closed in, slow and wooly, imo.

We have exact opposite listening experiences. You have never heard the inexpensive Grado with the Longhorn mod, and I have never heard the Grado without it. I used to run a Longhorn in an H-K T25, both purchased from AVA, and I can tell you emphatically that it wasn't ANY of those things. Of course, I was running it into the AVA-recommended 10K input impedance rather than the standard-issue 47K. That may have also had something to do with it not sounding remotely "dark" or "closed-in". Loading can have significant impact on overall character, despite the fact that you see relatively little discussion of it.

Info on getting the loading right can be found in the early Audio Basics somewhere.

If I were still running vinyl, I'd unhesitatingly buy this cart again. I paid $99 for it... about 20 years ago. I'd be surprised if it didn't cost more now (what doesn't?)

Give it a try, you might be surprised.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #29 on:** 11 Feb 2010, 03:45 am »

Quote from: avahifi on 10 Feb 2010, 10:20 pm

She also despised digitally recorded programs because she thought they caused the analog pressings from them made into records to cause micro-cracks in her Linn turntable bearings.

Wow! That's a different grade of stupid.

Brett

JerryM · « **Reply #30 on:** 11 Feb 2010, 04:25 am »

Quote from: weirdo on 11 Feb 2010, 01:19 am

Could you give the novice a primer on what this product is. I currently have a Grado Green on my dedicated LP to CD conversion table, a cartridge that I consider the best budget cartridge I have ever had, and I am curious on how the product is improved by yous guys. Thanks, dk

dk,

Check out this link. Go to the bottom left of page 8. Frank's original write up of the Longhorn mod begins there.

Have fun,
Jerry

jrtrent · « **Reply #31 on:** 11 Feb 2010, 02:42 pm »

I've got the Longhorn Green1 on order and am very much looking forward to it. I always thought the regular Prestige Green was a great cartridge, and am excited at the chance to hear the Longhorn version. I'm about as far from a do-it-yourselfer as you can get, and am very grateful to Wayner and Frank for making this available again. Thanks, ChairGuy, for mentioning Wayner's announcement in a Vinyl Circle thread that I was reading.

rlee8394 · « **Reply #32 on:** 11 Feb 2010, 04:03 pm »

Quote

I'm not sure why people don't like Grado, ...

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that they are using a Grado with a phono section that has only the industry standard 47K ohm load instead of a 10K ohm load. See Franks Audio Basics March 1982 article, specifically the section Electrical Interface of Cartridge with Preamp (or Receiver).

This and all Audio Basics articles can be found here:

http://www.avahifi.com/root/audio_basics/index.htm

Bottom line is that there is just one and only one proper load resistance in which to terminate the cartridge, and that is based on the inductance of the coils of the cartridge, the series resistance of the cartridge coil, and the cable capacitance. For Grado cartridges, that equates to a 10K ohm load.

Read the article for more detail. Read them all if you truly have an interest on how and why audio should work.

Customers ordering a new preamp with phono section or separate phono preamp can always let Frank know what cartridge you intend to use and AVA can set the load resistor accordingly. If you have a different cartridge than what is discussed in the article, AVA can calculate the proper resistance for your cartridge for a small fee. Frank may waive the fee if you have bought an AVA product and neglected to inform him of the intended cartridge use in your system. Contact Frank for specifics on this topic. Hope this helps.

Thanks,
Ron

el34 · « **Reply #33 on:** 11 Feb 2010, 04:47 pm »

I'm considering a new cartridge for my Technics 1200mk2. Currently using
an Ortofon om20, but after upgrading my speakers, and digital source to
Insight+ DAC, the analog side is crying out for an upgrade. Wayner,
I understand you have some experience with the 1200, and have in the past
recommended AT440mla for that table. Is the grado longhorn compatible with
the technics? (all stock, but with added KAB damper trough.) Any comparisons
of the two options (AT vs. longhorn?)
thanks,
JF

baldrick · « **Reply #34 on:** 11 Feb 2010, 04:55 pm »

Quote from: rlee8394 on 11 Feb 2010, 04:03 pm

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that they are using a Grado with a phono section that has only the industry standard 47K ohm load instead of a 10K ohm load.

Funny that. Grado recommends 47K loading on their website and then publishes their inductance and series resistance.
So if you assume no capacitative loading at the preamp and a typical cable capacitance of 100pF and the formula:

RL = -RLC + 2L*SQRT(LC) / 4LC - (RC)^2
Where:
RL = optimum loading resistance,
L = inductance of cartridge coil (45 mH according to Grado)
R = series resistance of cartridge coil (475 ohms according to Grado)
C = cable capacitance (100 pF typical)

You get 10488 ohms or just over 10K.

Goes to show you - proper cartridge loading is absolutely critical.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #35 on:** 11 Feb 2010, 06:01 pm »

baldrick,

Back 25+ years ago, it was their F & G-series then, Grado recommended lower loading point of 10,000 ohms.

All Models
Input load: 10,000 Ohms
Inductance: 55 mH
DC resistance: 700 Ohms
Mounting: 1/2" centres
Pickup weight: 4.5g

http://www.vinylengine.com/library/grado/stereo-phono-pickups.shtml

I don't think Grado internals have changed any...it's merely a dumbing down to the reality of a 47K loading standard today. They do indeed sound better at lower loading points...that wallowy bass they often exhibit tightens up considerably, for one.

John

avahifi · « **Reply #36 on:** 11 Feb 2010, 07:22 pm »

Our original calculations were done with the 55 mH and 700 ohm numbers from the old days. The modern Grado has lower numbers and is somewhat less affected by a 47K load. It works well enough in my own system at 47K that I have not bothered to change the load to 10K.

Of course this can be done with AVA preamps by changing the 47K phono input resistors to 10K, and in most cases I can tell you how to do this over the phone. It takes a bit of unsoldering and soldering to the pc cards.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

rcag_ils · « **Reply #37 on:** 11 Feb 2010, 07:28 pm »

Are we talking about finetuning the phono stage for the Grado cartridges? What if we decided not to use the Grado in the future? If changing to 10K just for the Grado, I don't think I'd bother with it.

For example, you accidentally damaged the Grado stylus and have no spare on hand, but you had another old workable cartridge in your bench stock. What then, change the phono stage back to 47K?

baldrick · « **Reply #38 on:** 11 Feb 2010, 07:44 pm »

That's the idea.
If you're anticipating changing cartridges semi-regularly it may be a good idea to use a quick plug connector or terminal strip that you can slide the loading resistor into. I have modified my own preamps to be able to change load resistors (and load capacitors) easily.

Something like this Tyco connector (part number 282844-2) might work, off the top of my head:

avahifi · « **Reply #39 on:** 11 Feb 2010, 07:48 pm »

I guess what I was suggesting above was that "fine tuning" was not all that important any more.

I am comfortable with a client using the Longhorn Grado into a standard 47K ohm load and liking the results. For those that like to "fine tune" go ahead and play with input loading, for those that do not, then just plug the Longhorn Grado in and enjoy it.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine