[motosapien]

I've got NAD separates and heard that a tube preamp does nice things with a good SS amp ( C275BEE ).  I can upgrade at my dealer and trade both in and get $2300 towards a tube set up, perhaps a Rogue Audio integrated.
This no doubt has been discussed in detail but searching forums is not my strong point.  I live in an apartment so huge amounts of power are not required.  My speakers are the obvious weak point in the system now ( EPOS M8's).

[oneinthepipe]

IMO, upgrade your speakers before replacing your amplification (preamps are amplification).  When you replace the speakers, you will be able to select amplification that will compliment your speakers.  If you bought a preamp, and then you replaced your speakers, you might need to replace your amp. When you replace the amp, your existing preamp might not pair very well with the amp.  There is synergy.  I think that you should replace the speakers, especially if they are the weak link. You don't want to be in the position of being limited to speakers that will need to work your amp.  That is like buying a car that will work with tires that you already own.

If anyone suggests that I didn't respond to motosapien's question, motosapien didn't ask a question. 

[motosapien]

My question is this: Does it work well to pair a tube preamp with a SS amp generally? 

As far as new speakers go, I'm leaning towards a sealed enclosure two way.  Perhaps some GR Research NX2's.  What I would give to have my old Genesis 210's back.

[ArthurDent]

I believe the short answer based on posts I've read here over time is 'Yes'. Works for me in one of my systems, other system has hybrids both pre & amp. Also works quite nicely. I think oip's comment on compatibility is relevant as well. It's probably a matter of the 'sound' you are looking for, and that's a personal determination.

[PhilNYC]

My question is this: Does it work well to pair a tube preamp with a SS amp generally? 

I have had great results pairing tube preamps with solid state amps, but as with all things audio, much depends on the synergy and proper matching between the components (eg. impedance match, etc)....

[oneinthepipe]

A tube preamp and a solid state amp can make a very nice combination, depending on the preamp and amp.  A solid state preamp and tube amp can also make a very nice combination, again depending on the qualities of the components and their compatibility with each other and with your other components.

If it were me, I would still select the speakers before the electronics.  I have Spendor S3/5, in my little speaker harem, and they are not very efficient (84db).  They need, IMO, a 100 watt amp, at a minimum if solid state, to provide the headroom to let them sing. 

Here is a great little inexpensive 2-way speaker.

http://www.salksound.com/speakers_other_mbow1caow1.shtml

[Niteshade]

It's absolutely a good idea. There are different kinds of tube preamp circuits:

1. Cathode output
2. Anode output
3. Push-pull output

My favorite is anode output. Get some opinions on what people like.

Those with tube pre's: If you do not know what kind of circuit you have, it's wise to find out. That way, if you want to try something different- you can try a whole new circuit type.

[Mr Content]

I use a tube pre with SS power amp on one of my systems with very good results. Some SS amps can have better drive and control in the bass, and this can be an advantage some times, depending on your speakers.
Just for Blair.... I have a "cathode output pre" 

Mr C

[Niteshade]

Have you tried the other circuit types? I'm asking this question of everybody with tube pre's. What would you think of an anode vs. cathode output, cathode vs. push-pull, etc...

Cathode outputs are common due to their low impedance output. (For those who many not know this.) All three designs have their own sonic flavor too.

I use a tube pre with SS power amp on one of my systems with very good results. Some SS amps can have better drive and control in the bass, and this can be an advantage some times, depending on your speakers.
Just for Blair.... I have a "cathode output pre" 

Mr C

[Mr Content]

Hi Blair, I have tried push/pull as well. Because the cathode output makes component matching a lot easier, I found that " cathode" worked better for me, as I have a few different power amps that I use from time to time.. I found that having tube rectification  can be a more useful circuit than maybe "anode, cathode, pushpull". you can taylor you sound to very large extent trying different tube rectifiers.  Just my own experience with this.......not preaching anything in particular

Mr C

[Ericus Rex]

I've been doing tubed pres with SS amps for years.  Great combo, I think.  Why are you considering an integrated though?  Your question implies that you plan on keeping your amp.

[PhilNYC]

Btw - one thing to be careful of...tube preamps tend to have a much higher output voltage than solid state preamps, so you do need to make sure that your amp is ok to receive the voltage.  Not sure if it was true, but I do even remember reading somewhere that Krell even voids your warranty if you hook their amps up to a tube preamp because of this reason....

Some preamps have a low/high gain switch to address this....

[motosapien]

I've been doing tubed pres with SS amps for years.  Great combo, I think.  Why are you considering an integrated though?  Your question implies that you plan on keeping your amp.

I generally like my NAD amp for it's low distortion and reliable work horse qualities.  The simplicity of an integrated is also attractive.  Rogue & Vincent make some well regarded tube or hybrids.

The logical path ( thanks oneinthepipe )would be to upgrade my speakers and then tweak the amplification which is what i will do.  I grew up listening to my parents MacIntosh/ Warfdale system so i think I miss the warmth of tubes.  I am partial to well recorded live music.

Thanks for helping me clarify things - if that ever really happens in this hobby.

[roscoeiii]

Also a fan of tube preamp into SS amp. Tube pre gives a lot of the nice aspects of tube sound, while a SS amp gives some of the better frequency extrension into treble and bass that are often (but not always) rolled off in tube amps.

I will also agree that starting with speakers is good advice, as is attention to system synergy. Makes a big difference. And as you are putting your system together don't forget to pay attention to the impedence outputs and inputs of your components and the recommended relationships between these from pre to amp, etc.

[pjanda1]

You really need to look at the input and output impedance of the respective devices to be sure it will work.  Tube devices generally have high input and output impedances, SS often quite low.  So, not all tube preamps can drive all SS amps happily.  10:1 is the generally accepted rule: make sure your preamps output impedance is at least 10 times lower than the amps input impedance.  That means less than 1K output impedance for the standard 10K SS load.  Not all tube preamps meet that spec (not that they should either, as it is a spec few of the simplest, most transparent circuits can meet).

Then, as folks also sort of alluded, you should pay attention to gain structure.  Generally, you don't want to have so much gain that you are using less than 1/4 the travel (90 degrees) of your volume knob.  Tube preamps often have a huge amount of gain, as many of the circuits are still based on those designed when the standard input from a phono stage was 1V, which is half as much as the current standard of 2V for a CDP.  Excess gain often means excess noise.  Some would also argue a loss of microdynamics.  A pot on the front of your amp does not solve the problem.  Some preamp spec sheets quote gain, and it is something with attention.  This is really a broader issue, and a problem more endemic to separate preamps and amps and contrary standards than specifically to tube/SS combos.

Paul

[jtsnead]

I would get a good used tube preamp designed to work with all amplifiers like my Modwright 9.0SE, I put in NOS 7199 tubes and it sounds great.

Then you could take the left over 1300.00 and buy some nice floor standing speakers Epos etc

Then upgrade to a tubed amp later, the Rogue Audio stuff is excellent I have a Stereo 90, made in USA, great people to deal with

Good Luck

[pardales]

I've got NAD separates and heard that a tube preamp does nice things with a good SS amp ( C275BEE ).  I can upgrade at my dealer and trade both in and get $2300 towards a tube set up, perhaps a Rogue Audio integrated.
This no doubt has been discussed in detail but searching forums is not my strong point.  I live in an apartment so huge amounts of power are not required.  My speakers are the obvious weak point in the system now ( EPOS M8's).

Component matching is critical so if you do not know what you are doing take the advice of  a dealer, the folks here, or someone else you trust. You can waste a lot of time and money mixing and matching pre's and amps without some guidance.

I recommend sticking with an integrated amp and putting more money into speakers.

[Steve]

I also consider 10:1 to be a good figure to deal with, input impedance (Z) of the amplifier 10 times that of the output Z of the preamplifier. The RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook, written by 26 engineers states this.

The load resistance should never be greater than the following grid resistance and should preferably be not more than 1/4 of Rg2.

Rg2 is the following grid resistor or amplifier input Z in the case we are studying. As mentioned in an earlier post, 10:1 is a good safe ratio. 

Just as important if not more is the input Z of the amplifier must be high enough to allow flat bass response which means the output capacitors of the tube preamplifier must be sufficient value. Too low and the bass will suffer even though the 10:1 ratio is satisfied.

As far as preamplifier output Z and high frequency response here is an example I believe will help. From one of my white papers:

Let's check for any high frequency response advantages vs preamplifier output impedance (Z). If one uses a high capacitance interconnect cable (IC) (and include amplifier input capacitance) say 250pf of total capacitance, and the preamplifier output impedance rises from 100 ohms to 2000 ohms, the high frequency response drops approx 0,4db at 100,000 cycles per second, and approximately .015db at 20khz.

Using a 50pf interconnect cable (again includes amp input capacitance) results in less than 0,02db drop at 100khz, and virtually none at 20khz.

By the way, interconnect cable capacitances should be minimized. (However, rarely, a longer IC with higher capacitance is neccessary as there is no choice.).

Hope this helps.

[pjanda1]

Good point re: the output capacitor.  Generally, to drive an SS load, you're looking at something in the 3.3-5 uf range.  If you're preamp uses an electrolytic (yucky but common) then they probably choose a plenty large enough size.  But, designers often like to keep film output caps as small as possible, given that large values like 3.3-5uf are physically very large and nicer types (polypro or better) and quite expensive.  If your output cap is undersized, it may lead you to blame a lack of bass on "tube sound," which isn't the problem at all!

Paul

[Ericus Rex]

Hmmm...sounds like scapegoating the preamp to mask a bad design.

I do even remember reading somewhere that Krell even voids your warranty if you hook their amps up to a tube preamp because of this reason....