When do the T/S parameters call for Transmission Line?

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S Clark

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I have a pair of students interested in a MMT  design using the following woofer:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=299-250&utm_source=Parts-Express&utm_medium=Flash+Panel&utm_content=299-250+01-05-2010&utm_campaign=Home+Page+Flash+Panel
I am familiar with EBP as it relates to vented or sealed boxes, but does it relate to transmission line cabinets? :scratch:

Duke

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Re: When do the T/S parameters call for Transmission Line?
« Reply #1 on: 3 Feb 2010, 04:06 am »
My experience with transmission lines predates computer modelling, so its usefulness may be limited.  But as an enthusiastic amateur I built somewhere over fifty different transmission line designs, most of which sucked. 

The problem with a transmission line is this:  At the frequency where the path length is equal to one wavelength, the sound emerging from the terminus is 180 degrees out-of-phase with the frontwave so you get a cancellation notch.  You can reduce the depth of the notch by stuffing the line, but then you also reduce reinforcement down lower. 

You can use geometry to help a bit; my best transmission lines had the diver about 1/3 of the way down the line instead at the end of the line.  Or even better, use two drivers each a different length down the line, with the midpoint between the two at about the 1/3 point.  This spreads out both the reinforcement and cancellation a bit.  Also, the farther apart you can get the woofer(s) and line terminus, the better.   

But in my opinion the best results came with using a driver that has a fairly high Qts and thus will normally give you too much bass, and then using a lot of stuffing in the line.  This reduces both the depth of the notch and the amount of reinforcement down low, but since you're starting out with too much bass to begin with both changes are in the right direction.  I would suggest a Qts of .45 to .70, generous cross-sectional area (if you want a compact box then build something else), and a lot of Polyfill.

In my opinion the woofer you linked to is unlikely to give satisfying bass in a transmission line.

Duke

S Clark

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Re: When do the T/S parameters call for Transmission Line?
« Reply #2 on: 3 Feb 2010, 04:39 am »
Thanks Duke.  Like I said, I have a solid handle on ported vs sealed, but I had no idea about qts or anything regarding transmission lines.  Anything that says "increased bass output" gets a high school boys attention.

Kevin Haskins

Re: When do the T/S parameters call for Transmission Line?
« Reply #3 on: 3 Feb 2010, 04:41 am »
If you want to chase it further go over to Martin King's site.    I'm not a big proponent of TLs due to the complexity of modeling and building the designs.   I'm lazy.... also your drivers are probably not the best choice.    Martin gives some rules of thumb and you can point your student in that direction.    If he/she wants to have a better chance of nailing a design you may want to push them towards a simpler to model & build enclosure.    Those Peerless drivers would work good in a traditional ported box.... probably not so good in a TL but he/she would have to dig-in and see how it looks.

http://www.quarter-wave.com/

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
« Last Edit: 4 Feb 2010, 12:29 am by Kevin Haskins »

S Clark

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Re: When do the T/S parameters call for Transmission Line?
« Reply #4 on: 3 Feb 2010, 04:50 am »
Thanks Kevin.  I had already modeled it for a MMT ported tower when I gave it to the kids.  Their assignment was to look around for MMT designs or MTM designs and the conversation got around to TL enclosures- and I just didn't know enough about them to advise.

Danny Richie

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Re: When do the T/S parameters call for Transmission Line?
« Reply #5 on: 3 Feb 2010, 05:04 am »
Yeah, it's not easy.

Duke is right. Higher Qts drivers are better as you are dealing with a lot of air space for them.

I like to tune to a range just below what you would normally get with a ported box. So the added gain of the transmission line will give you some added low end output.

It is not easy to calculate either. I made three different boxes before I got the tuning right on the A/V-3. It is one thing to calculate it out. It is another to run that impedance sweep and see where it really tunes to.

It would not be easy for the kids to pull off.

speakerman19422

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Re: When do the T/S parameters call for Transmission Line?
« Reply #6 on: 11 Jun 2010, 02:12 am »
Are any forum members familiar with the Fried transmission lines? Fried always used polyurethane foam for the stuffing. He used low qts. drivers with long xmas and large Bl product and large Vas. I have been building these types of designs based on the design parameters I deduced from building many of his transmission kits since the early 80's. It's pretty simple to calculate the design once the common denominators were found.

planet10

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Re: When do the T/S parameters call for Transmission Line?
« Reply #7 on: 11 Jun 2010, 07:51 am »
Duke's experience with classic TL design is pretty typical.

With the advent of modern TL modeling software (Kevin has already pointed out Martin King's site) it is possible to quickly sim a lot of configurations and get a pretty accurate idea of what works & what doesn't. It also is a really good modeler for BR -- the only sw i know that actually accounts for the port location.

It might be more accurate to call them quarter-wave designs as the term TL now has a range of meanings. In its broadest sense it covers all quarter-wave designs (including rear loaded horns), in the strictest sense those roughly akin to the bailey lines.

At minimum you should grab a copy of Martin's alignment tables and the accompaning spreadsheet and play. It covers a useful subset of TL space -- traditional thru to voigt pipes. You might want to contact Martin about a licence for the software -- regular price is $25, but he may have something special for ed.

Or you could pop over to diyAudio and ask the question. You have a specific woofer. There are guys over there that know the tricks who are suggesting TLs for others needs all the time. Tricks like offset (Duke mentions it, but inches can make a difference, and what is ideal depends on taper*), using different tapers, pre-chambers (not seen all that often, but a hallmark of the typical Bailey/Radford/IMF/TDK lines), Mass-Loading. *(appropriate line length also depends on taper)

dave

speakerman19422

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Re: When do the T/S parameters call for Transmission Line?
« Reply #8 on: 19 Jun 2010, 02:07 am »
No need need for computer programs when I know the forumla's.  I have discuseed this with Martin on the Yahoo t-line group. Spl meter and test signals are proven methods of testing like many companies use . The Fried designs give very natural sounding bass down to driver free air resonance. They do require high current amps.