More tube gear and a question...

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TJHUB

More tube gear and a question...
« on: 30 Jan 2010, 07:03 pm »
I got into tubes this past August with my first ever tube piece of audio gear.  I've only grown to appreciate tubes more and more.  I've learned a lot and I've dialed in this piece, a Music Hall DAC 25.2, with a Mazda 7308 tube and upgraded Burson opamps.  The DAC sounded incredible with my solid state preamp and amp, but now I've upgraded.

My latest purchase was a Rogue Audio Perseus tube preamp and I was VERY concerned about feeding this tube preamp with my tube DAC.  Too many tubes I was thinking.  Well I was wrong.  I by far prefer the sound of my tube DAC feeding the Perseus.  The clarity and sound stage is just amazing.  They have seemingly paired very well. 

However, as always, I'm wondering what other tubes may do for the Perseus.  The problem is that there are (4) tubes in the preamp as it is an "mu-follower" design.  I've read what this is and I understand it on a very basic level, but I don't know which tubes to roll.  I think it's just the front pair to alter the sound, but I'm not sure.  Does anyone know?

Here is a pic of the preamp:



Thanks.

pjanda1

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Re: More tube gear and a question...
« Reply #1 on: 4 Feb 2010, 02:12 am »
That is a pretty preamp!  What tubes does it use?  I just glanced at Rogue's site and couldn't tell.  My guess is that two of those tubes are for the phono preamp, so rolling them won't do any good unless you are using them (if you are listening to vinyl, rolling the phono preamp tubes will probably make a bigger difference than rolling the line stage tubes)!  The other two tubes are probably the line level preamp.  It would be typical if they are dual triodes where one tube is for each channel, and one triode of each tube provides gain and the other is the mu follower, which lowers the output impedance.  Rolling won't matter much at all to the mu follower, as it is essentially a 100% feedback devices, and feedbacks very nature is to eliminate any distortion, and thus whatever sonic characteristics the part has.  But, the other half of those tubes (if I am right about the topology) is the gain stage, and rolling it will make a difference (though the magnitude of that difference will depend on how much feedback is applied.)  You can't swap half a tube, so you'll of course replace the whole thing.

So, the moral of the story is, ask Rogue which tubes do what (or see below).  If you have four 12AX7's, you can't really guess without looking at the circuit or asking.  If you have two 12AX7's and two 12AU7's (or some other lower gain tube), I'd bet that the X7's are the phono stage and the U7's are the line stage.  So, figure out which tubes are providing the gain in the line stage, and swap those.  When you know specifically what you are looking for, folks here and elsewhere will have all sorts of opinions about which particular type sounds best.

I just typed all that and realized that you could just pull tubes to figure out which ones do what.  Don't pull them all at once, and don't run it for too long without a pair, as the voltages will likely be a little high due to the reduced load on the power transformer.  But, pull tubes two at a time.  When you've found two that you can pull and get no sound from either channel, those are the two to roll.  You can, of course, plug something in to the phono stage and confirm the results, as pulling the other two should mean the line stage works but the phono input is silent.

that was ramble-y.

Paul

pjanda1

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Re: More tube gear and a question...
« Reply #2 on: 4 Feb 2010, 02:13 am »
Oops, I just saw that you can download the manual.  That'll most likely answer your question.  .  .

Paul

TJHUB

Re: More tube gear and a question...
« Reply #3 on: 4 Feb 2010, 03:49 am »
Thanks for the response Paul.  I thought I read that the Perseus uses 12AU7's, but I don't know that for a fact.  I'll have to figure that out.

BUT...  I received my new amps today and things are VERY different.  I picked up a used pair of Odyssey Stratos Extreme SE monoblocks and they are just spectacular.  I have a synergy right now that I haven't had for the last couple of months.  I started changing gear and things went the wrong way on me.  I've been struggling ever since.  Well today, it's back.  My interest in tube rolling in the Perseus may be delayed or gone altogether.  I need more listening time, but anything I threw at my setup today sounded near perfect.  The Odysseys really work well with the Perseus!

pjanda1

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Re: More tube gear and a question...
« Reply #4 on: 4 Feb 2010, 04:33 pm »
I'm glad things are working out!  I didn't download the manual, but 12AU7's in the line preamp positions would be good news.  Though many have done it, the X7 is not much of a preamp tube.  And, because of the guitar players, they are multiple times more expensive than a comparable U7.  I just sold pairs of identical 12AU7's and 12AX7's on ebay (used 60's Sylviana mil-spec tubes).  The pair of X7's brought $26.  The pair of U7's brought $4.  I shouldn't have sold the latter!

Paul