When upgrading: Look at your speakers first.

doug s. · « **Reply #160 on:** 11 Feb 2010, 11:54 pm »

Quote from: macrojack on 11 Feb 2010, 10:22 pm

Tweeter height, huh? I'm gonna need a barstool. Or cut holes in the floor to lower the woofer cabinets. Which would you guys recommend?

i'd recommend nothing - it's speaker dependent. raising my coincident voctory's a foot raised their tweeters a foot above ear level, and yes, the speakers sounded better.

w/horns like you have, i don't think you will have any issues w/the tweets being higher than ear level.

doug s.

Niteshade · « **Reply #161 on:** 12 Feb 2010, 12:04 am »

Here is a question: Have you tried using 4 front speakers? As in- two for the left & two for the right? I imagine some interesting imaging could take place.

DaveC113 · « **Reply #162 on:** 12 Feb 2010, 12:22 am »

Quote from: macrojack on 11 Feb 2010, 10:22 pm

Tweeter height, huh? I'm gonna need a barstool. Or cut holes in the floor to lower the woofer cabinets. Which would you guys recommend?

Just aim them down

My speakers are elevated 6", sit a few " below ear level, but are also tilted back a little.

cujobob, science can get you started, but in the case of audio it's far from being able to define my ideal of a good system. I'm a ME, and use science everyday. I fully believe in it's application where possible. You could put together a system that is technically perfect according to what we currently know, but it may not sound good or realistic at all.

I think we have a lot of good products to choose from, but making it into a great audio system is difficult. Doing it within a budget is even more difficult. Unless you have a lot of money, you're going to have to make compromises. A single driver / SET w/ subwoofer is capable of delivering most of my requirements, and the compromise is mainly in volume. You won't rock the neighborhood, but it's plenty loud enough for me at the listening spot, with peaks around 103+ dB. Dynamics are actually quite good, one of SET's strong points is slew rate, and coupled with favorable clipping characteristics, you can get a very effortless, natural, dynamic sound. Frequency range is 24 - 18,000 Hz, with the sub x-over at 60 Hz. Imaging is pinpoint, and the soundstaging is very impressive. If you can only spend from a couple thousand to around $10k on a system, it's a good option. If I was capable of making a much larger investment, I might look at other options. I have personally heard just about all common types of speakers achieve world class performance... even one example of an OB single driver augmented by subs (Feastrex at RMAF 2009). It is the only single driver I'd call world class, and the bare drivers in these speakers cost over $100,000.

macrojack · « **Reply #163 on:** 12 Feb 2010, 12:32 am »

I was joking, guys. Just a little snicker about my lack of height. I have horns with a 40 degree radiation pattern. That provides a pretty good vertical range at 12 feet away.

Tyson · « **Reply #164 on:** 12 Feb 2010, 01:06 am »

Every speaker has it's strengths and weaknesses. Speakers have a "sound" more than any other component. The key, IMO, is to find the type of sound you like. Do you prefer the jackhammer dynamics that only horns can afford? Do you prefer the smoothness and ease of a good softdome tweeter and paper midrange driver? Do you prefer the more analytic presentation of metal drivers? Or the see-through transparency that ribbons and stats can give you? Or do you like the overall midrange coherency that a crossoverless, single driver speaker has?

Each type of speaker tends to do at least one area better than the others. Learning your own preferences is by far the fastest way to end up with good sound in your home. Then, after that, it's like soup - flavor to your preference using other spices and ingredients (ie, source, amp, preamp, cabling).

pjg66 · « **Reply #165 on:** 12 Feb 2010, 01:24 am »

A side note to this discussion on how to best improve your system:

If you find that $14,500 power cable doesn't offer enough bang for the buck, you may want to change your speaker cables. MIT offers the Oracle MA-X at $35,000 per pair. Kent Louglin, VP MIT Cables, has declared (in a news release) that these are "what the high end is all about."

It just gets deeper and deeper.

pjg66

Tyson · « **Reply #166 on:** 12 Feb 2010, 01:31 am »

In the past, there was a larger DIY community in high end audio, lots of "regular people" built things like Dyancos and the like. This gave people a lot more knowledge of both the science and the engineering choices that go into making good sound. Since then, less people DIY, and the hobby has more voodoo and snake oils as a result. I know from building my own speakers that I learned a bit about what makes for good sound, and a LOT about what makes bad sound! My friend Jason has started to build DIY amps, and the experience there is the same - once you understand the choices and tradeoffs involved, it demystifies the high end and you are able to make much better judgments about specific components.

macrojack · « **Reply #167 on:** 12 Feb 2010, 01:38 am »

Only in high end audio - where the worst you can predict has already happened. $35,000 speaker cables are well ahead of my worst guess.
What are they claiming to justify those? R&D? Material cost? Review bribes?

K Shep · « **Reply #168 on:** 12 Feb 2010, 02:07 am »

Quote from: macrojack on 12 Feb 2010, 01:38 am

Review bribes?

Not cool. I haven't read many negative audio reviews and most of the gear in the mags are high priced and out of range for many readers, but suggesting audio reviewers accept bribes is careless.

macrojack · « **Reply #169 on:** 12 Feb 2010, 02:19 am »

Hair trigger. Who did I accuse? I wouldn't know about that sort of thing. Maybe reviewers refuse all favors - maybe they lay out their demands - maybe the truth is somewhere in between. Why is this important to you?

It seems as if a small casual random innuendo was extracted from an obviously jocular post and turned into grounds for a warning. Why so touchy? Are you a reviewer?

srb · « **Reply #170 on:** 12 Feb 2010, 02:24 am »

Quote from: pjg66 on 12 Feb 2010, 01:24 am

If you find that $14,500 power cable doesn't offer enough bang for the buck, you may want to change your speaker cables. MIT offers the Oracle MA-X at $35,000 per pair. Kent Louglin, VP MIT Cables, has declared (in a news release) that these are "what the high end is all about."

I call your MIT Oracle MA-X and raise you Siltech Emperor Crown speaker cables (2.5m) at $45,800.

Just shoot me now.

Steve

Tyson · « **Reply #171 on:** 12 Feb 2010, 02:35 am »

My advice on high priced cables like that? Don't buy them.

K Shep · « **Reply #172 on:** 12 Feb 2010, 02:38 am »

Quote from: macrojack on 12 Feb 2010, 02:19 am

Who did I accuse? I wouldn't know about that sort of thing.
It seems as if a small casual random innuendo was extracted from an obviously jocular post and turned into grounds for a warning. Why so touchy? Are you a reviewer?

If you don't know about that sort of thing why would you make a "casual random innuendo"? No I am not a reviewer. I just don't think it is cool to suggest that a reviewer takes bribes. I don't know what you do for a living but you wouldn't be happy if I suggested you take payoffs to award contracts. For example.

doug s. · « **Reply #173 on:** 12 Feb 2010, 02:38 am »

Quote from: Tyson on 12 Feb 2010, 02:35 am

My advice on high priced cables like that? Don't buy them.

+1

gimme $45k, and i bet i could put together a system better than the system of someone's w/those cables in it.

macrojack · « **Reply #174 on:** 12 Feb 2010, 02:41 am »

Tyson,

I don't know you from Adam but I know in my heart that you are providing excellent advice therefore much as I want those Siltech cables, I'm not going to buy them.

doug s. · « **Reply #175 on:** 12 Feb 2010, 02:42 am »

Quote from: K Shep on 12 Feb 2010, 02:38 am

If you don't know about that sort of thing why would you make a "casual random innuendo"? No I am not a reviewer. I just don't think it is cool to suggest that a reviewer takes bribes. I don't know what you do for a living but you wouldn't be happy if I suggested you take payoffs to award contracts. For example.

while i don't know if rewiewers take bribes, or not, i am not sure your comparison is analogous. who in their right mind even rewiews $45k cables, let alone purchases them? only those interested in bragging rights for how much something costs, imo, not for how it sounds.

doug s.

macrojack · « **Reply #176 on:** 12 Feb 2010, 02:55 am »

Doug - The existence of cables priced like that defies my imagination. I damn sure can't guess who would spend that much money in that way.

K Shep - If you want to press the matter go back and check my comment. I did not accuse "a reviewer" or any reviewer of taking bribes. If you want to accuse me of something it would be guessing whether the manufacturer might need to price his cables that high so that he would be able to offer a bribe to a reviewer. Read carefully. Read just what is said.
I can't see why anyone would take such exception to offhand levity. Calling it an accusation is well over the top.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #177 on:** 12 Feb 2010, 03:00 am »

When conventional piston type multi-way loudspeakers are elevated or tilted the relationship of the lobing errors in the speakers radiated sound field to the listening position is changed which results in a change in the frequency response at the listening position.
Better time alignment of the drivers can also be achieved depending on the crossover design and baffle layout.
If the flattest frequency response possible is the desired goal then a little experimentation is in order.
Regarding the cost of components in a stereo system, if you have a quarter of a million or more to spend on your hobby the the prices mentioned for power-cords and speaker cables in previous posts are chump change. Offering an appropriately priced product to that segment of the market makes perfect sense.
Concerning reviewers, they frequently receive an industry accommodation price on the gear they review,how you chose to view the ethics of this practice is up to you.
Scotty

K Shep · « **Reply #178 on:** 12 Feb 2010, 03:03 am »

Fair enough. Perhaps I read to much into it.

doug s. · « **Reply #179 on:** 12 Feb 2010, 04:03 am »

scotty, even if i did have a $250k system, no way 20% of it would be in speaker cables. even 2% seems excessive to me. unless, as i said before, i was only interested in bragging about how much i paid for them...

doug s.