[Niteshade]

Tube rolling is a BIG virtue! Options should never be thought of negatively. If you can make something better easily- there is nothing wrong with that. Besides- coloration is a product of the speakers + amplifier + listening room and its contents. Tube rolling can either reduce or increase coloration.

So...tube amps are not colored but tube rolling is a virtue of them?  That doesn't make much sense to me.

[DaveC113]

I don't see any advantages though...unless one were to listen at particular low volumes.

the differences between sources at various pricepoints are quite small. 

A good preamp can certainly enhance the musicality of the system, however, this too is a very small gain by comparison.

Wow... you have lots of opinions, but obviously very little experience listening to stereo systems.

Sources and preamps make a HUGE difference, and some single drivers are excellent speakers. The Feastrex OBs at RMAF this year were incredible, and Omegas are better than most conventional speakers under $10k and many over that price. 

[Nuance]

mebbe i am mistaken, but i think nuance was talking about an educated listener, who has had the opportunity to sample many different quality products.  ya, i always liked my bose 901's and pioneer receiver.  then i heard thiel 3.5's, driven by electrocompaniet electronics.   

doug s.

That's correct.  The folks who "don't know any better" probably don't care anyway. 

Hello Nuance can I ask which system sounded more life like?

Honestly, neither was "perfect."  I know, shocking considering the price tags of each.  My frame of reference is live classical music, mostly heard in while attending Madison Symphony Orchestra performances at Overture Hall in Madison, WI.  I liked everything about the Audio Research system except that the voices were too soft, and the sibilance of the cymbals was a little muted.  In comparison, the Ayre system had less midrange depth.  Still, I would very be happy with either, but technically none are what I'd call "reference."  Then again, that's what the real deal is for (actual live music).  Achieving a perfect system is impossible unless you listen in the same venue that the live recordings are performed, and even then you'd have to apply various EQ.  In short, its just not plausible. 

I won't debate whether I think tubes add distortion or whether I think SS or tubes actually sound more realistic.  I have my opinions and I'll keep them to myself, because as I said before, if you guys put the work into achieving a good synergy, who am I to tell you your system isn't accurate?  The only thing that matters is that you enjoy your system.  Now, if you don't enjoy your system and ask for advice, that's a different story. 

[Nuance]

Wow... you have lots of opinions, but obviously very little experience listening to stereo systems.

Sources and preamps make a HUGE difference, and some single drivers are excellent speakers. The Feastrex OBs at RMAF this year were incredible, and Omegas are better than most conventional speakers under $10k and many over that price. 

Now this is an example of the comments I was speaking of.  This is completely unnecessary.  If you disagree, be civil about it.  PROVE your point rather than telling someone they have little experience.  That's just juvenile, and a good example of why I didn't "branch out" (as I was so often told to do) until recently here on Audio Circle.  Also, you should know, science is not on your side.  The speakers and room have been proven to account for most of the sound we hear through audio system, provided there isn't a flawed piece of equipment upstream, so...

Try providing facts to help get your point across instead of belittling someone and then expecting us to just buy into your opinions.   

[DaveC113]

Now this is an example of the comments I was speaking of.  This is completely unnecessary.  If you disagree, be civil about it.  PROVE your point rather than telling someone they have little experience.  That's just juvenile, and a good example of why I didn't "branch out" (as I was so often told to do) until recently here on Audio Circle.  Also, you should know, science is not on your side.  The speakers and room have been proven to account for most of the sound we hear through audio system, provided there isn't a flawed piece of equipment upstream, so...

Try providing facts to help get your point across instead of belittling someone and then expecting us to just buy into your opinions.   

I just call 'em like I see 'em. Since you're not my mom, save the lecture.

In MY OPINION, cujobob (and others) make comments that are on the edge of insult, and show an OBVIOUS lack of experience, and you don't expect them to be called out for it?

What I'd like to see, is less whining from people like you, and less insults from the people like cujobob and turkey.

Now mind your own business and don't tell me what to say or how to say it. 

P.S.: Your rolling the eyes and wagging the finger smileys are also insulting. That's just juvenile, and a good example of why I didn't "branch out" (as I was so often told to do) until recently here on Audio Circle.

[Nuance]

^ Thanks for proving my point.  From this point on I won't bother with your foolish antics.  You're not worth the time.   

[DaveC113]

^ Thanks for proving my point.  From this point on I won't bother with your foolish antics.  You're not worth the time.

Maybe your avatar should just be a big frowny face?

Don't take things so seriously, because it's not a big deal. Nothing is a big deal here.

 

[pjg66]

Interesting discussion on power conditioners.  I do use a power conditioner, but only for some components.  I was told very explicitly by my dealer (whom I trust) that certain components (like my Meridian pre/processor) should not be run through a power conditioner, but should be plugged directly into the wall.

Any thoughts on this?

pjg66

[K Shep]

In MY OPINION, What I'd like to see, is less whining from people like you, and less insults from the people like cujobob.

I disagree with you Dave, you seem to have an opinion but no one else may share their opinion?  I read cujobob's post, makes sense to me.  I don't agree with it but insulting?  IMO your the one throwing around insults.

[DaveC113]

IMO your the one throwing around insults.

Because I said someone doesn't have enough experience listening to stereo systems to make the claims they do? I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I AM claiming to have enough experience to know that the statements made when I quoted cujobob are not in line with my actual experience in all cases. Blanket statements that "this doesn't matter" without context are like stereotyping someone based on race. It could be true, but not necessarily.

Anyway, that is my opinion, I'm sorry others find it insulting.

I shouldn't lump cujobob in with turkey. He is less insulting, but the statement about single drivers is making a roundabout claim that anyone who listens to single drivers has less than good taste, reason or common sense.

BTW, you didn't quote me correctly, and didn't make it obvious where you changed my writing. That altered the context slightly, to reinforce your point, didn't it? Maybe you should look up "ethics"?

[K Shep]

What I'd like to see, is less whining from people like you.

This is what I consider insulting.

[DaveC113]

This is what I consider insulting.

Well aren't you dainty? 

[jhm731]

"When upgrading: Look at your speakers first."

I agree.

For those of you looking for new speakers, here's an excellent post from TAS Reviewer Robert E. Greene, entitled: "Why bigger speakers are better."

"I explained this with examples here:

http://www.regonaudio.com/Audio%20in%20Modern%20Times.pdf

but I thought some more examples might help(and these have true power response measurements, which I cannot really do).

Look at the small one first:

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?doctype=3&docid=784

Look at the directivity index. It takes all the way up to 600 Hz to get to where it is baffled dominated. (It goes on up from there,too, but that is another story
(it is because of the largish mid-driver). What this means is that there is a big change in behavior right in the midrange--look at the beam width figure. All of a sudden the thing abruptly narrows down at 800 Hz--the baffle step. This is not the fault of the designer--it is just because the baffle is small. [I am not condemning this speaker as such. It is inexpensive indeed and looks quite nice for the money. It is just little!]

Now look at this big baffle speaker:

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?doctype=3&docid=569

from the same company.

Now you are getting something that works!

Scroll down to look at the directivity index (and sound power) for this one.The directivity has stabilized by around 200-300 Hz and remains quite nearly constant up to around 4k. I would like to see it even more nearly constant, but this is quite good, in fact very good and the slight upswing
in directivity around 2k is probably pretty harmless because it is not very large and the offasxis forward responses are nice in that region. The big step is over by the time you get to 300 Hz, until one starts the treble narrowing(which is a good idea probably and in any case will not be a source of coloration).

JBL did a really nice job with the big LSR , but the reason I am bringing these particular speakers up is that JBL shows so much in the way of measurement data(this is an honest company--they tell you what you get!)

And the point is clear: It is IMPOSSIBLE for a small speaker to work right in the sense of having uniform directivity through the midrange--unless of course the speaker is microscopic so that that the speaker remains nearly omni all the way through the midrange.

Minispeakers like the LS3/5a--but like any mini really, there is nothing specific about the LS3/5a--have the baffle step from omni to forward IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MIDRANGE. This is not a good idea And it is definitely audible.

Speakers have to be large enough to get the baffle step out of the way pretty far down to sound good.

Bigger is better!!

Reason:

If it is low, it has much less effect on the color of the sound since in the low frequencies the whole room response tends to be heard as a unit so one can EQ to whatever one wants to hear and there is no conflict between what the direct sound is like and what the room sound is like--room and direct are lumped together in the lows. But not so in the mids!!

Things like the Harbeth M40 and this big JBL ,with their wide baffles, rule the roost. Sorry but one had better start skipping lunch to save money(if need be)--or start experimenting with putting on your own large baffle and reEQing(which will actually work pretty well--more on that later)

Speaker behavior is a tricky thing to control, but it is not impossible to understand. One just has to start from scratch and not be distracted by rhetoric.

REG

PS A bit strange I think that this sort of thing is almost never mentioned in audio magazines, even though the pro people obviously know it is very serious --that is why the JBL people give the specifications of directivity index and so on. About the only mention in the consumer press(that I did not write) that I can think of recently has been in the Sonus Faber ADVERTISEMENT about their
Stradivari speaker where they emphasize the importance of the wide baffle. Odd that an ad should contain such a vital thing and nothing else much would..."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/regsaudioforum/

[lcrim]

I've decided to lock this topic. 
For some reason it keeps generating bad feelings.

[lcrim]

Lets see if we can get along.  I'm unlocking this topic.

[pardales]

Lets see if we can get along.  I'm unlocking this topic.

Thanks for your active role as moderator in attempting to preserve the integrity of this site. 

[K Shep]

 
For some reason it keeps generating bad feelings.

Hopefully we can stop calling each other names. 

[Larkston Zinaspic]

"When upgrading: Look at your speakers first."

I agree.

For those of you looking for new speakers, here's an excellent post from TAS Reviewer Robert E. Greene, entitled: "Why bigger speakers are better."


http://www.regonaudio.com/Audio%20in%20Modern%20Times.pdf

Thanks for the article. Interesting read.

[turkey]

Wow... you have lots of opinions, but obviously very little experience listening to stereo systems.

Sources and preamps make a HUGE difference, and some single drivers are excellent speakers. The Feastrex OBs at RMAF this year were incredible, and Omegas are better than most conventional speakers under $10k and many over that price.

I don't know about cujobob, but I've been listening to stereo systems for several decades, and I had mono systems before that when I was a kid. I agree with him for the most part.

[Nuance]

Hopefully we can stop calling each other names. 

+1