[satfrat]

I look at my wallet first. No money there...no need to upgrade.

Boy did you hit the nail on the head!       Things for me personally were sure different 2 years tho,,,,

[Wind Chaser]

I look at my wallet first. No money there...no need to upgrade.

Too bad banks aren't like service stations - fill er up!

[Browntrout]

As far as power conditioning is concerned this is the most beautifull way to improve the sound. With good intelligent purification the sound becomes so wonderfully natural and peacefull it is like honey for the ears and kisses for the soul.
  Ultimately the whole essence of a stereo is electrical so the quieter and more stable the supply the sweeter and more lovely the music. As for proof noise is measurable and the affects are listenable.
  A good power cord will beat a good interconnect in magnitude of effect. If I could afford it each component would be run of one of these
http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?src=google&lookup=1&region=UK&currency=GBP&pf_id=1190&customer_id=PAA0543021710315OQMUVOTIOVYVVPBP
Improving the electricity improves everything.

[Nuance]

^ That's not proof.  We'll just agree to disagree. 

[satfrat]

^ That's not proof.  We'll just agree to disagree.

Agreed! 

[*Scotty*]

Here is the hole and the shovel it was excavated with. A 1970s vintage Pioneer receiver SX434 15watts per channel+world class power
conditioning= a Pioneer SX434 being all it can be,which is a nearly 40 year POS. Blindly applying a generalization in a knee jerk reaction to every situation results in this kind of silly result. With this sort of approach one can engage in indirect turd polishing. You get that warm feeling that comes from feeling in control of the situation and spending money to solve a problem, all the while straining at gnats and swallowing camels. No thank-you.  Another example, spending the same amount money on power conditioning instead of upgrading the _________  in your system. You fill in the blank with the new state of the art component or speakers that the power conditioning is substituting for. Common sense would suggest that one should assemble the best quality system one can afford and then deal with remaining problems in a timely and judicious manner. As I said before, I vote for the horse pulling the cart and not the obverse condition.
Back to the original topic,speakers, I would say that the loudspeaker is usually where the biggest compromise is made when assembling a system. Good speakers are expensive and eat a lot of your budget in a hurry. When you have more money to invest in upgrades to your system spending money on better speakers can greatly increase your enjoyment of the music you listen to.
Scotty

[droht]

I have no clue what is real or imagined regarding power conditioning or expensive power cables.  Clearly though, some of us swear by the need for these things.  One thing I'm always baffled about is why more folks are not more focused on battery power.  Isn't that the ultimate way to clean things up?

[Nuance]

^ Could be, sure, if in fact there is a problem at all.  The tricky part is factually measuring to see if there is a real problem (actual measured noise), then listening unbiasedly to determine if the measured "problem" is also an audible one.  Battery power is neat, but probably not plausible for most.  I bet its costly too. 

If there is a problem with grounding or excessive noise, fix that problem; don't cover it with a band aid and hope it heals itself.  A power conditioner won't work in many scenarios, such as a when the power conditioner is only isolating the hot and neutral wires.  Many circuits are connected to the grounding conductor and not the neutral, so what if the ground is causing the problem?  In that case the power conditioner will do nothing. 

No matter what you believe, if you do NOT have a noise issue (that you can actually hear), then you don't NEED a power conditioner.  They are to be used if, for instance, a light switch dimmer or refrigerator is causing an actual audible noise.  No noise = no power conditioner necessary. 

Personally I think people "hearing a difference" is true, but its due to cognitive dissonance and not due to an actual change.  I mean no offense, by the way.  You guys give your opinions and I'll give mine, but I'm siding with science on this one. 

[cujobob]

I believe part of the reason you think that way is because most power conditioners aren't that good (at this point in time).  The claims being made about huge jumps in sound quality are likely related to having very poor electrical in the home.  I've tried various levels upto the AR1P (the most 'high-end' I've tried thus far) and none made an upgrade that I was aware of.

People want to believe that expensive cables and power conditioning make a difference...it's possible they can, but it's just as possible humans are just easily tricked.

[rollo]

 I disagree. The source will give you the most change. When looking at a speaker change the amp driving the speaker is critical. synergy of these IMO should be considered together.
  Garbage in garbage out. A better source will always improve the sound a different speaker? Maybe ? My take.
  Clean power is a must. some power supplies are designed better than others. Meaning that if yours is not then a power conditioner may help. In my experience when gear like Audio research, Mc Intosh, CJ and the like have excellent power supplies. To date adding conditioners to the line ruined their performance. The only device so far to improve the sound on my AR amp was the Alan Maher CBfs. No real filtering just affects the harmonics and magnetics on the line. Try one for $25.


charles

[turkey]

I wouldn't focus on sensitivity.   I've driven 83dB sensitive loudspeakers with 20W tube amps and it just comes down to designing the crossover so that it is an easy load.   It is trivial from a design standpoint.    The reason the speakers were 83dB had to do with the target size and bandwidth.   

Drivers with low sensitivity are normally going to be more prone to problems with power compression as the voice coil heats up, since they require more power from the amp for a given SPL.

I'm convinced that power compression is a very audible problem with a lot of speaker systems.

[turkey]

Order of importance in my opinion:

- Room
- Speakers
- Source
- Everything else

You could put the "best" speakers in the world in a crappy room and you'd still get sub-par sound.  Room first, speakers second, source third, everything else next.  I believe the room and speakers combined make up 95% of what we hear (or more).  Feel free to argue that point if you must, but that's my thought process. 

Just my $0.02

Good speakers tend to avoid some room problems that many other speakers provoke. In other words, controlled directivity and CD (constant directivity) are key.

Once you've got that, a LEDE approach seems to work quite well, with some acoustic treatment for mids and highs on the wall(s) closest to the speakers. Treatment for the bass frequencies is not needed; you just use multiple subs as specified by Geddes.

[turkey]

 Everything you mentioned I agree with. Synergy is a key element when putting a system together. Where others may not agree with me........... I think all the components within a system are critical. I truly beleive in the "weakest link" way of thought.

I believe in the "weakest link" way of thought too. However, in most cases, modern electronics are not the weakest link.

[turkey]

HiFi in the strictest sense is no parking place for rose colored glasses.

Then why are so many people into systems that have increased amounts of distortion or large amounts of coloration?

If SET amps and single-driver speakers aren't rose-colored glasses, I don't know what is.

[macrojack]

It makes no difference whatsoever which equipment you use as long as you employ the Master Set speaker placement formula. Harr, Harr, Harr.

[turkey]

I couldn't disagree more with that statement. There's not a clean home circuit in any home. Every motorized appliance is injecting garbage into the circuit and it shows up at your system. Anyone who has power conditioning in their system will attest to it's effectiveness in lowering the ground noise which in turn will allow more music to be heard. This is a well known fact to many audiophiles.

So you've measured the lowering of the noise level in your system after hooking up power conditioning devices? How many dB did it reduce the noise by? Was it a wide-band reduction, or only narrow? What frequencies were involved?

Did the noise level of all your components decrease, or was it only some of them?

[Kevin Haskins]

The biggest measurable differences are room-loudspeaker related.   I tend to start analyzing loudspeakers first and work from that end of the system back.    Upgrading is another matter though.   If you have 2A3 SET amplifiers it clearly dictates your choice of loudspeakers so there is no hard and fast rule if you are swapping one piece of equipment at a time.



   

[turkey]

^ That's not proof.  We'll just agree to disagree.

It's the same tired old BS he keeps on bringing up. He got throughly spanked on it, but he won't give up.

[Kevin Haskins]

The biggest issues that are power related are ground loop ones.   The causes are fairly simple although often misunderstood.   It is kind of surprising that the industry is so screwed up that we don't have standardized interfaces and that manufactures don't universally use the good practices that are standards.    A ground loop noise issue is clearly audible and even when minor is the limiting factor in the noise floor.    Solving the simple things should always be the first step and then people can argue about the voodoo solutions all they want.   But all of us can universally agree that a hum or buzz are easily audible.   

[turkey]

^ Could be, sure, if in fact there is a problem at all.  The tricky part is factually measuring to see if there is a real problem (actual measured noise), then listening unbiasedly to determine if the measured "problem" is also an audible one.  Battery power is neat, but probably not plausible for most.  I bet its costly too. 

If there is a problem with grounding or excessive noise, fix that problem; don't cover it with a band aid and hope it heals itself.  A power conditioner won't work in many scenarios, such as a when the power conditioner is only isolating the hot and neutral wires.  Many circuits are connected to the grounding conductor and not the neutral, so what if the ground is causing the problem?  In that case the power conditioner will do nothing. 

No matter what you believe, if you do NOT have a noise issue (that you can actually hear), then you don't NEED a power conditioner.  They are to be used if, for instance, a light switch dimmer or refrigerator is causing an actual audible noise.  No noise = no power conditioner necessary. 

Personally I think people "hearing a difference" is true, but its due to cognitive dissonance and not due to an actual change.  I mean no offense, by the way.  You guys give your opinions and I'll give mine, but I'm siding with science on this one. 

+1