Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST

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bluepearl

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Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST
« on: 27 Jan 2010, 11:20 pm »
I'm hoping to gain some insight into optimal preamp output impedance matching for a 4BSST.  I have read that Bryston amps have an abnormally high input impedance and only select preamps with a high output impedance will mate properly. My current (two) tube preamps have an output impedance of 450 ohms and 600ohms. The Bryson manual states that the input impedance is 20khz (balanced) and 50khz (single ended). What is the minimum output impedance I should look for in a preamp?

I would greatly appreciate if James or anyone else can shed some light on this topic.

Thanks.

BW

werd

Re: Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST
« Reply #1 on: 27 Jan 2010, 11:33 pm »
Min is 2k ohm for bal and 5k ohm for  single. It really doesnt matter for functionality as long as it doesn't go over 2k or 5k respectably.

I run my bda into the tape monitor that uses a 10k ohm in. The dac i think is like 600ohms out. No problem driving the tape monitor input at all.

Moon Doggy

Re: Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST
« Reply #2 on: 28 Jan 2010, 12:04 am »
Comparing the Bryston specs to other well known hi end amps I found input impedances of
1. 47.5 Kohm, (didn't say if bal or not)
2. 22Kohm (bal) and
3. 30Kohm bal and 15 Kohm unbal

So the Bryston looks to be in the ball park.

James Tanner

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Re: Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST
« Reply #3 on: 28 Jan 2010, 12:20 am »
Rule of thumb is the input impedance of the amp should be about 10 times 'or more' the output impedance of the preamp.

james

bluepearl

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Re: Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST
« Reply #4 on: 28 Jan 2010, 12:36 am »
I've heard of the 10 X rule, so my current preamp is way off then; 600 ohms X 10 = 6K ohms. Not even close to 50K. So as the previous poster mentioned I need min 2K ohms for a balanced pre and 5K ohms for single ended(?) I don't think I've come across a preamp with an output rating this high...
« Last Edit: 28 Jan 2010, 01:45 am by bluepearl »

werd

Re: Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST
« Reply #5 on: 28 Jan 2010, 12:41 am »
I've heard of the 10 X rule, so my current preamp is way off then; 600 ohms X 10 = 6K ohms. Not even close to 50K. So as the previous poster mentioned I need min 2K ohms for a balanced pre and 5K ohms for single ended(?) I don't think I've come across a preamp with an output rating this high... Any recommendations?

Hello

sorry i read your post backwards and was commenting on the input of a bp26 ....lol sorry

vegasdave

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Re: Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST
« Reply #6 on: 28 Jan 2010, 02:49 am »
I've heard of the 10 X rule, so my current preamp is way off then; 600 ohms X 10 = 6K ohms. Not even close to 50K. So as the previous poster mentioned I need min 2K ohms for a balanced pre and 5K ohms for single ended(?) I don't think I've come across a preamp with an output rating this high...

Well, get a Bryston preamp. Problem solved.

bluepearl

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Re: Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST
« Reply #7 on: 28 Jan 2010, 02:53 am »
What is the output impedance of Bryston preamps?

James Tanner

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Re: Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST
« Reply #8 on: 28 Jan 2010, 03:16 am »
What is the output impedance of Bryston preamps?

80 ohms.

james

maligue

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Re: Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST
« Reply #9 on: 28 Jan 2010, 10:55 am »
For whatever it's worth I am pasting part of an exchange that took place in the NuForce Circle (I was worried about impedance matching for a tube preamp and the Nuforce power amps). Here's the answer from a seasoned engineer.

In a "theoretically" perfect world, the output and input impedances of audio components would appear as purely "resistive" terms.  That means there would be no variation of the impedance with respect to frequency.  If this were the case, then impedance matching (or lack thereof) would be a relatively very minor issue.  In a situation where the output impedance of a preamp is high (above 1K-Ohm) and the amplifier input impedance is low (below 10K-Ohm), the only consequence would be a very slight (approx. –1dB) reduction of voltage being delivered from the preamp into the amplifier.  Even in about the worst case where the impedances were the same (as in 600-Ohm professional equipment), the voltage being fed into the amplifier would be reduced by ½ (-6dB) as compared to what would be measured on the output of the preamp when it was not connected to the amp (no load condition).

A loss of -6dB would certainly be significant from a gain standpoint such that you would probably have to really turn up the preamp volume control, but unless the preamp simply could not provide that much extra gain and began clipping the signal, one would not expect to hear any difference in sound QUALITY.  That being said, then a –1dB gain loss should not introduce any negative effects whatsoever.  Again, in most cases a –1dB loss of gain due to an amplifier exhibiting a lower input impedance (10K-Ohm or so) is usually about the worst case we run into when it comes to high-end audio equipment.  Therefore, we would not expect to hear any audible degradation of the sound, even in this "worst case" scenario.

Now… the above only holds true as long as both the output and the input impedances of the connected devices are "flat" from a frequency response standpoint.  If a product were advertised as being "truly" high-end, then one would hope that we could expect the designers thereof to have made provision for such a flat impedance response.  Due to complicated technical reasons though, it is not typically possible to provide a flat impedance response under all impedance miss-match conditions.  This is especially true regarding a device's (a preamp) output impedance.  Nevertheless, using good "modern" design techniques would suggest that a preamp should be able to meet such a "flat impedance response" requirement when faced with a typical "worst case" load impedance of about 10K-Ohms.

If a preamp cannot achieve this level of performance, it does not necessarily mean that the device will not "sound" good, especially when it's driving an amplifier that exhibits a higher input impedance.  If this is so though, then the designer has severely restricted its possible use with other products.  There is no "right" or "wrong" in this regard and it is simply a matter of choice on the part of the designer of the product.  It is clearly a matter of opinion, but we question the wisdom of such a design philosophy from a marketing standpoint.  At a minimum, owners of such products would be well advised that if they select such a product, they should understand that their peripheral equipment (i.e., amplifier) options will be limited to those that exhibit input impedances that more closely match the requirements of their preamp.

You see… there is strong motivation on the part of the amplifier designer to keep the amp's input impedance as low as reasonably possible.  High impedance inputs are far more susceptible to external and internal noise pickup and distortion.  Good "low noise" design then suggests that the input impedance be kept as low as possible.  This then is in direct conflict with many (especially tube) preamp designs.  Tubes are relatively high impedance devices and require special types and/or circuits to achieve good low output impedance performance.  From a technical standpoint, designing tube preamps to have a lower output impedance is not really a significant design challenge, but doing so usually comes at a slightly higher financial cost due to the expense of better tubes and/or a higher parts count.  Unfortunately, it seems a common practice is for designers to simply avoid the added cost and parts count, and then recommend the preamp be used with amplifiers of higher input impedance.  Doing so though forces the amplifier designer to make potentially significant compromises in the performance of his product if he wishes to accommodate such a preamp.

And so the debate continues… "Whose responsibility is it to achieve optimal performance?"  Seeing that a lower input impedance can benefit both tube and solid-state power amplifier designs equally, it would seem the "onus" is on the preamp designer.  Good luck trying to tell him that though!   

maligue

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Re: Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST
« Reply #10 on: 28 Jan 2010, 10:59 am »
... and here is one more, this time from the designer of the tube amp: about the 10.1 rule.

Thank you for your mail and the interesting point you address.
The 10:1 ratio for input impedance vs. output impedance is not based on science. It is a totally random choice made by uninformed people.
A little explanation on impedances and driving them:
Driving a high impedance from a low impedance is a near 100% voltage transfer.
The lower the input impedance and the higher the output impedance, the more current is going to be transferred relative to voltage.
When input impedance reaches about the same value as the output impedance, current and voltage transfer are in balance, and their product (power) is at its maximum.
There are many cases where it is advisable to have the input impedance equal the output impedance. This guarantees maximum power transfer without any losses (when done right).
It is very well possible to even do it the other way round, having a high output impedance driving a very low input impedance.
The only difference is that now we are driving a variable current into the input, instead of a variable voltage.
(Of course there should not be a frequency limiting component in that signal line, like a capacitor.)
There are several brands that actually use this technique, like Krell with their CAST connections.

brucek

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Re: Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST
« Reply #11 on: 28 Jan 2010, 01:11 pm »
I've heard of the 10 X rule, so my current preamp is way off then; 600 ohms X 10 = 6K ohms. Not even close to 50K. So as the previous poster mentioned I need min 2K ohms for a balanced pre and 5K ohms for single ended(?) I don't think I've come across a preamp with an output rating this high...

bluepearl, you may be a bit confused. The 10:1 rule of thumb is a rough minimum to determine if your impedance match is greater than 10:1. In your case of 50K:600, that's a ratio of 83:1 and well above the minimum of 10:1. You're good.

Let me explain a bit further. The typical interface between a preamp (the source) and power amp (the load) is a line level, high impedance connection, where the output impedance of the source is usually in the order of about 50 ohms to 1000 ohms and the input impedance of the load is in the order of 10K ohms to 50K ohms. 
 
This is known as a voltage bridge connection where the source is acting as a voltage source and almost no current is drawn. In fact, a perfect voltage source would have an output impedance of zero ohms at all frequencies. This would result in all the output voltage from the source being dropped across its load with no voltage being lost to the output impedance of the source.

Output impedance is basically the internal resistance of an amplifier seen at its output. The value can be slightly frequency dependent because of reactance caused by inductance and capacitance, but either way, a low output impedance is desirable.

In its simplest terms you can view the internal resistance of a source and its associated load as a voltage divider. The higher the output impedance of the source, the more voltage will drop across 'itself' instead of its load. This in effect means less voltage will be received at the load.

If the input impedance of a load device is not significantly higher than the sources impedance, the signal will be reduced or 'loaded down' and its signal to noise ratio and frequency response will suffer. Certainly the load can become too much for the source to supply adequately.

Generally, a high output impedance requires closer attention to cable lengths. The concern is that the high reactance (frequency dependent resistance caused by capacitance) of the longer cable, combined with a high output impedance of the source creates a low pass filter which adversely affects bandwidth. This distortion of the higher frequencies increases with higher output impedance's. To put it simply, your highs will suffer.

So, unlike speaker cables (where we don't give a darn about capacitance), with an interconnect it becomes important no matter what the output impedance, although the situation is exacerbated with a higher output impedance. The interconnects capacitance results in a parallel reactance (frequency dependent resistance) that will roll off the higher frequencies. It becomes more and more a factor with a higher impedance mismatch between the source and load.

Anyway, the old rule of thumb that says the input vs output impedance of a voltage bridge interface should be a minimum of 10:1 is specifying the minimum to ensure high frequency preservation. So, if I fed a load that has a 10K ohm input impedance, then I would just be OK with a 1000 ohm output impedance source, but I certainly wouldn't want to run long interconnect cables.

This reasoning is why they insist when you use a 'passive' preamp you use super short, super low capacitance cables, because they have fairly high output impedance's. This impedance usually varies too, because the output is connected directly to a potentiometer that alters the output impedance as the dial is turned - pretty undesirable. People weigh this off against the benefit of low noise of the passive preamp.

Tubes preamps also have fairly high output frequency dependent impedance. This is what gives them that 'warm' sound you hear about, (actually it's distortion). Cables are important to valve lovers for a reason.......Now you know why. In the case of a valve output of 600 ohms, you have no worries feeding an amplifier with a 50K ohm input impedance. I would start to be concerned about cables if the amplifier had an input impedance of 10K ohms though.

brucek

bluepearl

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Re: Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST
« Reply #12 on: 28 Jan 2010, 10:41 pm »
Thanks for the in-depth explanation! Clearly I have nothing to be concerned about with my set-up...

Moon Doggy

Re: Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST
« Reply #13 on: 28 Jan 2010, 11:45 pm »

This reasoning is why they insist when you use a 'passive' preamp you use super short, super low capacitance cables, because they have fairly high output impedance's. This impedance usually varies too, because the output is connected directly to a potentiometer that alters the output impedance as the dial is turned - pretty undesirable. People weigh this off against the benefit of low noise of the passive preamp.

brucek

Thanks for the well presented explanation. Saved me from further research. :thumb:

Re above quote: Does this imply that passive pre-amps are better implemented in an integrated amplifier?


brucek

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Re: Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST
« Reply #14 on: 29 Jan 2010, 12:58 am »
Quote
Does this imply that passive pre-amps are better implemented in an integrated amplifier?

I didn't know they made integrated amps with a passive preamp stage. I suppose it would solve the cable problem, but there are so many other concerns with passive preamp stages that I would think it better to play with them as a standalone device.  :)

brucek

Moon Doggy

Re: Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST
« Reply #15 on: 29 Jan 2010, 05:01 am »
I didn't know they made integrated amps with a passive preamp stage. I suppose it would solve the cable problem, but there are so many other concerns with passive preamp stages that I would think it better to play with them as a standalone device.  :)

brucek

Creek Audio makes integrated amps with passive pre-amps.

MOZ

Re: Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST
« Reply #16 on: 31 Jan 2010, 05:01 pm »
Hi all, Hi James,

Sorry to get this here but i didn't want to open a new thread only for my question...
I'm trying to get my 4B SST2 and 9B SST2 to power up with the triggers and it doesn't work.
I'm using the Power up trigger of my Lexicon MC12.
Polarity is allright, MC12 trigger out is linked to the trigger in of my amp and the back power button of the Bryston is on.
Howcome it doesn't work when i power up my MC12 ?
What is the right way to get the trigger to work using a 12DC trigger ?
Should i press on the front button of my Bryston first and then power up my MC12 ?
Or should i leave it untouched ?

What am i missing here ?  :?

brucek

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Re: Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST
« Reply #17 on: 31 Jan 2010, 06:38 pm »
Quote
Should i press on the front button of my Bryston first and then power up my MC12 ?

Yes, the Bryston power switch has to be left 'ON' all the time. Then the 12 volts will control the on and off.

You must also have the amps rear external selector switch taken out of 'LOCAL' so it knows to use the REMOTE trigger.

brucek

vegasdave

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Re: Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST
« Reply #18 on: 31 Jan 2010, 08:24 pm »
Thanks for the in-depth explanation! Clearly I have nothing to be concerned about with my set-up...

Yes, thanks for that. Very educational. I have in fact bookmarked this page.

MOZ

Re: Preamp Impedance Matching for a 4BSST
« Reply #19 on: 31 Jan 2010, 10:32 pm »
Yes, the Bryston power switch has to be left 'ON' all the time. Then the 12 volts will control the on and off.

You must also have the amps rear external selector switch taken out of 'LOCAL' so it knows to use the REMOTE trigger.

brucek

Thanks Brucek,

That's what i've done but it doesn't work...
James, any idea ?