[drew8mc]

Hello all,
I just had my first listen to HT3's last night.  I think they are the paragons of neutrality and resolution any where near their price class. 

The problem I'm having is deciding whether or not that sound is what I want.  I know that I'm probably sticking my neck out to be chopped off in here, but allow me to explain where I'm coming from, and then perhaps some long term owners of HT3's will chime in and help me out. 

The speakers I currently own are JM Reynaud Twin Signatures.  These are French stand mount two ways for those who are unfamiliar.   What they are NOT, is neutral and revealing.  They certainly have a tilted up midbass and they have boxy colorations.  I hear some of you saying "Case closed, box 'em up".  It's not really that simple.  They have a certain "aliveness" that is very enjoyable.  They make all music sound exciting and involving.  The problem I'm having is that I want to see deeper into the recording, but keep that excitement.  Hence my current search for the next speaker.  What I really want to avoid is the feeling after a year or two that I'm bored with the sound, that I need something new. 

The HT3's were amazing on well recorded material; remarkable really.  They have an ease and naturalness about them.  Their bass is not tipped up in the 60-100 htz range, which was a bit of an adjustment for me.  Stand up bass had that great combination of body and string.  On my Twins, it's mostly body.  On less well recorded material (The Flaming Lips "Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots") everything went flat.  I could really sense the dynamic compression used and the fact that their was no real space it was recorded in.  I have so many recordings like these, and I love the music. 

So my question to you HT3 owners, and even HT2 owners really (as I hear the only difference is in the bass) is after the honeymoon is over, do you find yourself listening to all of your music, or do you tend to reach for music that is recorded well?  I find that is often the most telling aspect of system evaluations.  What do you end up playing day in and day out?  If there are owners out there who have gotten rid of their HT3's, why?  Are there folks who have come from a more deliberately colored speaker like a Sonus Faber to HT3's? 

Ultimately, this would mean a radical redirection for me.  I know that only I can decide whether this is what will bring long term happiness or not.  But any insights would be much appreciated.
Drew

[coke]

I don't have the HT3s but I do have the HT2-TLs.

I find myself listening to all of my music more often.  With music that isn't recorded well, it still sounds better to me than it did with my previous speakers.  They just allow you to get a step closer to hearing music as it was intended.

Below are a couple situations i find myself in. Not sure if it will be helpful or not.

Normal listening / background music = grills on, not in the sweet spot, and using an ipod or pandora from my computer.  These speakers do a great job here.  Some people say that high quality speakers bring out too many flaws and the music isn't enjoyable.  I haven't experienced this with the salks.  I much rather have too much detail, than to try to cover up flaws with a cheap speaker or one that colors the sound.

Critical listening = grills off, sitting in the sweet spot, and playing a well recorded cd.  Sounds like you already experienced this.

[fsimms]

So my question to you HT3 owners, and even HT2 owners really (as I hear the only difference is in the bass) is after the honeymoon is over, do you find yourself listening to all of your music, or do you tend to reach for music that is recorded well?  I find that is often the most telling aspect of system evaluations.  What do you end up playing day in and day out?

You bring up some good points.  I only have HT1’s and not HT3’s but, with the sub, the quality is very similar to my friend’s HT3’s.   Jim Salk says that they sound the same from 100 hz up as the HT3’s.   I love my HT1’s.  I listen to everything.  I listen to mostly vinyl when I want to listen to music.  Some of the vinyl is pretty old. 

I think that even your Pink Robot probably did sound good.  It was just that the shock of comparing the sound next to a very well recorded one made the Pink Robot one sound seem worse.  I listen to TV through my HT1’s and never wish that I was listening through different speakers.  YMMV

Bob

EDIT: After 6 years with the HT1's I am as excited with them as ever.

[Big Red Machine]

Try on eof these:

1. You must immediately rid yourself of all bad recordings!

2. No self-respecting audiophile should possess same.

3.  Dude, what are you thinking!!

4.  All of the above.

 

[kip_]

From what I have read the HT3s are a clear window into other components and the recording, they do not color the sound. Have you tried different amplification, DACs, vinyl source components?

Perhaps what you are hearing from the other speakers is warmth, or your HT3s could be revealing flaws in your upstream equipment or the recording. It's all about synergy. Have you tried a tubed dac or amp with the HT3s?

[drew8mc]

Sorry, I should have clarified what my listening entailed.

I heard them at another owners house, with all sorts of equipment I'm not familiar with.  I played a few albums that he had that I also owned.  How they sound in my room with my equipment is an unknown at this point. 

[Bear]

Is their a component that could be added somewhere in the signal chain that could be switched on during really bad recordings to "warm" the recordings up by adding a bit of distortion.  It would of course be switched off and bypassed for better source material.  ???

[funkmonkey]

So my question to you HT3 owners, and even HT2 owners really (as I hear the only difference is in the bass) is after the honeymoon is over, do you find yourself listening to all of your music, or do you tend to reach for music that is recorded well?  I find that is often the most telling aspect of system evaluations.  What do you end up playing day in and day out?

Drew-  as an HT3 owner, and possessor of some not so great recordings I have made the move to computer based audio, and rarely ever listen to an actual CD anymore.  My everyday listening is usually random selections from my music library.  There are some definite moments of "wow, what a crappy recording!  I never knew it was that anemic sounding before," or "holy cow, did they record this through a wool blanket?"  Most of those moments are when a really lousy recording follows a really good one.  That said, I don't have any desire to purge myself of these less than stellar recordings, and I don't really enjoy the music any less.  The amazement that I get out of the well recorded stuff, far outweighs any negative feelings toward the lesser recordings.

To put it another way.  I am not going to listen to Patricia Barber because she is recorded well, if I don't like her music.  I will, however listen to the Ramones, or the Rolling Stones, or the Flaming Lips because I like their music, even if the recordings aren't of "audiophile" quality.  I have only come across one recording that I will not listen to because it is so awful, Buddy Guy and Junior Wells A Night of the Blues (all time worst quality recording I have ever heard), I can't even listen to that CD in my car with the windows down; in heavy traffic; on the freeway; with high winds; while surrounded by semi-trucks; and a guy revving his motorcycle; passing through a construction zone where they are jackhammering concrete; by the airport...

My advice would be to see if you can go back for a second listen, and listen to your worst recording first.  Decide if you can live with that sound.  Then listen to something that is well recorded, and send Jim your deposit check! 

The HT3s are amazing speakers, I have no regrets and no desire to upgrade them after more than a year of ownership.  Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.
Cheers

[R Swerdlow]

…The amazement that I get out of the well recorded stuff, far outweighs any negative feelings toward the lesser recordings.

My advice would be to see if you can go back for a second listen, and listen to your worst recording first.  Decide if you can live with that sound.  Then listen to something that is well recorded, and send Jim your deposit check! 

The HT3s are amazing speakers, I have no regrets and no desire to upgrade them after more than a year of ownership.  Hope that helps a little.  Good luck.
Cheers

Very well stated - and I couldn't agree more.

By the way, love the avatar, but my lawyer wants to contact yours about avatar infringement.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36600

[funkmonkey]

Very well stated - and I couldn't agree more.

By the way, love the avatar, but my lawyer wants to contact yours about avatar infringement.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36600

DOH!  sorry Richard!  I'll change it straight away. 

whew!  I think I avoided the lawsuit! 

[revrob]

For me I never think about upgrading the HT3s. Its the other components that I am looking to upgrade. I believe the Salks are one of the most revealing and accurate speakers that I have listened to. The source components and the amplifier IMO can even bring out more of the qualities of well recorded music.

I believe you can't go wrong with these speakers and even if you do there are people here on this forum that would be willing to take them off your hands.

Good luck. I spent a year looking for the perfect speaker for me and once I heard them I bought them and have never regretted my decision.

[BikeWNC]

I really like my HT3 speakers and won't be trading or selling them anytime soon (unless I can upgrade to the HT4!).  But, these are not plug and play speakers.  You might not like the sound you get with them with your current components, or maybe you'll love it.  They will let you know what you have and it's up to you whether you can handle the truth.  lol.  I would really recommend trying some tubes somewhere in the chain with the HT3s. 

[R Swerdlow]

DOH!  sorry Richard!  I'll change it straight away. 

whew!  I think I avoided the lawsuit! 

Seriously, you don't have to change it.  I like looking at it, and I've been too lazy to put it up here.

The worst sounding recordings I can still stand (rarely) to hear on my STs:

Rev-Up: The Best of Mitch Ryder & the Detroit Wheels

It always sounded great on AM radio, but on SongTowers its worse than licking broken glass

[jermmd]

I've had my HT3's for at least 3 years and I still totally enjoy them. I can listen to music for many hours without fatigue. It's very rare for me to be critical or analytical of my system because I'm so familiar with it. I really am very satisfied. It's actually difficult to be as enthusiastic and active in this hobby because I'm not changing components around as frequently as I used to. What needs upgrading? nothing really on the music side of things.

[rahimlee54]

What most everyone else has said, I agree.  I will add that when the recordings are good, you will listen to them repeatedly.  I feel the trade off is worth it for me.  I have a pair of headphones for music I cant stand on the Salks.  Or a nice bookshelf speaker.  I would hate to give up resolution for the sake of below average recordings.  If you can stand your worst recording on them then you are set, do whatever your ears tell you, it is a lot of coin and wait for something you aren't going to be happy with for a least a few years.  For me the compressed stuff is still listenable, just not as enjoyable because I know what else is there. 

Thanks
Jared

[Vulcan00]

Hi Drew8MC:

You’ve asked an interesting question for which there is no simple answer.

I think you should listen to HT3s more. Generally speaking better recorded music is easy to listen to simply because of the amazing sound of the Veracity speakers. When I first got my HT2-TL I found myself going through my collection amazed at new sound revealing things I never heard on the CD before.  My response to this new sound was to search for the best recorded material I had, most of the time listening to it with the bass management set L&R speakers @ 80 Hz and up. The sound in this freq on my HT2-TLs is simply amazing and hard to put into words. Now don’t get me wrong full range freq input it sound amazing too. Right now I have done a lot of work with speaker placement, room treatments and I am finding a combination of the HT2-Tls with proper sub input is just outstanding.  I am almost ready to ask Jim to build me a pair of subs (musical subs).

The HT3 should be much better in bass response. When you hear excellent recordings it’s just hard to be happy with the inferior stuff. I believe however you can do tweaks to make it sound better. I would never go back to a speaker incapable of achieving the true sound because of inferior recordings, but that’s just me.

[cujobob]

Perhaps you should identify what makes a speaker sound great to you and go from there.  By 'aliveness' do you mean dynamics?  The HT3 is not the easiest speaker to drive.

I've heard the line of Salks and like them a lot.  To me, the perfect speaker was one with incredible dynamics and great efficiency.  Others might not mind a bit of compression in exchange for a better sense of 'air.'  I believe speakers that do dynamics better make poorer recordings sound better than other speakers.  Might just be me... (I decided against going with Salks, btw)

The speakers you're coming from are two-ways, but they have quite a large driver which helps somewhat.

Here's a review for what it's worth:  http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/jmreynaud/twinsignature.html

[jsalk]

I thought I might chime in here, not because my perspective is any more valid, but because, in addition to my own personal views, I have talked to quite a few owners on this topic.

First, let me say that this is a fair question and one I have thought about quite a bit.  My perspective basically boils down to this:  If you want a speaker that can show a great recording in all its glory, it will be a very accurate, detailed and neutral.  Great recordings played through such a speaker are heavenly.  But poor recordings simply cannot hide from such a speaker and their faults will be exposed.  (They don't necessarily need to be less enjoyable, but their faults will be more obvious.)

Every speaker driver made has an inherent level of both veiling and distortion.  A speaker built with drivers that have high levels of veiling will tend to mask imperfections in recordings.  This may make these recordings quite listenable, but those same speakers will veil great recordings equally.  So with speakers such as this, you will never experience the magic of a great recording on a great speaker.  For me, that price is simply too high to pay.

Over the years, I have read online comments from posters who indicate a preference a "warm" sounding speaker.  And every once and a while, we will receive emails asking how I would describe the sound of our speakers.  "Do they sound warm?" 

The problem with this question is that a great speaker should not sound warm. Nor should it sound cold, bright, dull or anything else.  It should simply pass the music along as faithfully as possible.  If the recording is "warm," it should sound warm.  But if it is not, it should not.  If the speaker is adding warmth to the sound (usually added distortion), it is imparting its own personality to the music.  And it will impart this artificial warmth to every recording, whether it benefits the recording or not.  In this case, the speaker itself becomes a musical instrument and colors the sound.  Personally, I find this unacceptable.

Why does a given speaker sound "warm?"  It sounds warm if there is a high level of veiling (unable to resolve imperfections in the recording), or a high level of distortion (masking defects in the recording).  Neither, in my opinion, is desirable.

In terms of living with highly accurate and detailed speakers over the long haul, I have learned a little from customers.  Every once and a while, a customer who purchased speakers from our Veracity line will email with questions about break-in.  They will ask if the speakers will mellow over time.  I sense this line of question is related to this very issue.

In almost every case, about a week or two later, I will receive another email saying that the speakers were finally broken in and what a difference it made.  But having experience listening to our speakers when new and after hundreds of hours, I sense there is something entirely different going on here.  And in these cases, if the customer still has his/her old speakers, I usually ask them to hook the old ones up and get back to me with their reactions.

In every case they report that they cannot believe how veiled and unlistenable their old speakers were, and they wonder how this ever went unnoticed.

Here is what I think is happening...  When you get a new pair of speakers, you immediately start listening for how these speakers differ from your sense of what the perfect speaker should sound like.  Your mental frame of reference is most likely your old speakers which will likely have higher levels of veiling and distortion.  When the new speakers sound different (more detailed, for example), you notice that difference right away and try and determine if it is a difference you like or dislike.

When you first listen to a very accurate speaker, you may feel the sound is a little on the thin side.  But this is primarily due to the higher levels of distortion you are no longer hearing.  That distortion-induced body and warmth is not contained in the recording itself.  But you are so used to hearing it, you sense something is missing.

Since the new sound quality varies so much from your frame of reference, it takes you back a little.  About two weeks later, once you have become accustomed to a more detailed speaker, it becomes your new frame of reference.  At that point, you stop listening for the characteristics of the speaker and start listening to the music itself. That is when "full break-in" occurs.  But it is not the speaker that is breaking in, it is your frame of reference.

Once most people have a chance to spend an extended period of time with a highly detailed and accurate speaker, there is no turning back. If you go back and listen to your old speakers, you will most likely find them to be veiled, bloated and flabby in comparison.  Regardless of how pleasurable it may make some poor recordings sound, you know that these speakers will never provide the magic that is contained in your great recordings.  And you will likely find that unacceptable.

Will this impact what you listen to?  Undoubtedly so.  You will most likely find yourself searching for every great recording you can get your hands on.  And you will likely listen to poor recordings less often.  But that does not necessarily mean that poor recordings will be unlistenable. You'll just find yourself wishing they had been recorded better.  Great recordings, on the other hand, will put tears in your eyes.  That is simply the nature of the journey into high end audio and one that is well worth the trip.

That's my perspective.  Your milege may vary.

- Jim

[jackman]

Jim, I agree with you 100%.  Great post. I wish more people would read what you said and think about it when they evaluate new gear!

[kip_]

When you first listen to a very accurate speaker, you may feel the sound is a little on the thin side.  But this is primarily due to the higher levels of distortion you are no longer hearing.  That distortion-induced body and warmth is not contained in the recording itself.  But you are so used to hearing it, you sense something is missing.

Since the new sound quality varies so much from your frame of reference, it takes you back a little.  About two weeks later, once you have become accustomed to a more detailed speaker, it becomes your new frame of reference.  At that point, you stop listening for the characteristics of the speaker and start listening to the music itself. That is when "full break-in" occurs.  But it is not the speaker that is breaking in, it is your frame of reference.

Once most people have a chance to spend an extended period of time with a highly detailed and accurate speaker, there is no turning back. If you go back and listen to your old speakers, you will most likely find them to be veiled, bloated and flabby in comparison.  Regardless of how pleasurable it may make some poor recordings sound, you know that these speakers will never provide the magic that is contained in your great recordings.  And you will likely find that unacceptable.

Will this impact what you listen to?  Undoubtedly so.  You will most likely find yourself searching for every great recording you can get your hands on.  And you will likely listen to poor recordings less often.  But that does not necessarily mean that poor recordings will be unlistenable. You'll just find yourself wishing they had been recorded better.  Great recordings, on the other hand, will put tears in your eyes.  That is simply the nature of the journey into high end audio and one that is well worth the trip.

That's my perspective.  Your milege may vary.

- Jim

Jim, have you read Danny Richie's findings on speaker break-in? He found that drivers do indeed change their parameters over time.

http://www.gr-research.com/burnin.htm

I personally feel that break-in effects, with speakers at least, is due to a combination of factors, some electrical or mechanical, some psychological.