Linkwitz's Orions best speaker money can buy?

Mark T. Montgomery · « **on:** 23 Jan 2004, 05:01 am »

Hey guys just wanted to know you what you guys think about this speaker, both as DIY project and a fully assembled purchase? Can it realy whip anything thrown at it?

JohnR · « **Reply #1 on:** 23 Jan 2004, 09:23 am »

Hi Mark!

Um...

OK I'll bite

I think it should first be pointed out that there is no "best"... nothing whips everything... Audio is not a contest, it's more like a partnership

It depends on so many things ie who your partners are and what it is you wish to achieve. Some people value neutralilty, some people value looks, some value soundstage, some imaging, some slam, some dynamics, some TONE, some a certain "naturalness," some a "you are there" and some a "they are here." Some like to be in the front row, some center, some near the back. And everybody weighs all these things differently depending on what kind of music they listen to, or consider the most important for producing the best listening experience, or that which they use when auditioning or impressing their friends---which is most likely different from what they listen to most of the rest of the time!

End of philosophy lesson

I have not heard the Orions, only a design based on the same principles. I thought it was very good and I was extremely impressed by his work, but of course since I have different goals and listening desires than the designer, if it were mine I would probably mess with it to make it different. I have also read reports (not published on web forums) that particular implementations of the Orion failed to impress. Construction error? Not so good source? Not enough attention to placement? Who knows. There are also many good reports, you have already found those

One thing that is unavoidable (or difficult and $$$ to avoid) with this type of speaker is a limited output level at low frequencies. The design requires significant boost at low frequencies to compensate for acoustic cancellation, and therefore the chances of bottoming woofers is greatly increased. For folks that listen LOUD then, dipoles are probably not the best choice.

Since you ask about DIY, I don't know what Mr Linkwitz says but I would point out that this is not a beginner project. DIY requires learning new skills, and everybody *will* make mistakes. Best, in my opinion, to make mistakes on cheaper projects than something as complex and expensive as the Orion.

My apologies if it sounds like I am preaching or anything

I don't mean to but it's Friday nite and I've had a couple

WerTicus · « **Reply #2 on:** 23 Jan 2004, 11:57 am »

i have not heard the orions either but they sure look cool...

one 'problem' i have with them is that they go from the tweeter at 1.4khz to an large midrange driver... i understand this is to get decent volume levels out of its dipolar arrangment - but it makes me wonder what details are being lost because the large midrange driver is really too big to be properly representing anything over 600hz. (it will 'do' it im sure... but what subtle details are getting lost?)

Juan R · « **Reply #3 on:** 23 Jan 2004, 03:03 pm »

I had the chance to heard the Orion in a non treated room , the audition was acoustic guitar selection. reference are my Vmps r-40 with trt. The orion were powered by a pair of 4-ch amps SS, I dont remember but probably AR or ps audio, cd was a TACT. Bass extremely low even at low volume but good match for vocal without adding coloration. midrange not bad but not in the area of r-40, High excellent without distortion and good balance with mid and low, IMO excellent speaker for the money if you do build them. Ithink cost him around $2,500. If you buy already bulid are around $6,500. for that amount the VMPS are far better in allaspect except in low bass.

Mark T. Montgomery · « **Reply #4 on:** 23 Jan 2004, 07:34 pm »

Thanks for the imput guys.

JohnR I was not even dreaming of buying the Orions I just wanted you guys opinion. I'm going to start out with the vifa studios I think, and maybe I will try the Orions or something better a few years down the line.

WerTicus · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 Jan 2004, 11:27 pm »

i rekon the orions would make for good effects channel speakers

so not in the same league as the rm40's eh?

i realllly want to hear a pair of those now

JohnR · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 Jan 2004, 11:33 pm »

Werticus, I think you're a little off the planet man!

Effects speakers? Also, this 600 Hz business of yours is nuts. It would sort of be a shame if someone read this thread and was put off those speakers because of misinformation like that...

_scotty_ · « **Reply #7 on:** 24 Jan 2004, 06:08 am »

JohnR, Keep on preaching, as a 20yr.diehard DIYER the simpler systems and cheaper mistakes were always easier to work around and didn't amount to so colossal a failure that I gave up and had an expensive doghouse in the living room. This is an aspect of the hobby that should be approached with caution and clear understanding of your limitations before you start. My current loudspeaker purchase is the result of admitting my limitations regarding the design and construction of large
multiway loudspeakers. However I wouldn't say to someone don't try somthing big if they had completed smaller projects to their own satisfaction. Good luck on your project Mark, and if you do build a really big mistake,you can probably still use it for a dog house. DIY forever,Scotty

WerTicus · « **Reply #8 on:** 24 Jan 2004, 04:53 pm »

well where does the orions mid range driver start to break up?

JohnR · « **Reply #9 on:** 25 Jan 2004, 06:33 am »

Hey Werticus, I'm sorry if that was harsh. I can't read PDF files at the moment but the graphs are on the Seas site. But if the 8" is anything like the 7 and 10, somewhere around 4 kHz.

mb · « **Reply #10 on:** 25 Jan 2004, 08:59 am »

Quote from: Juan R

I had the chance to heard the Orion in a non treated room , the audition was acoustic guitar selection. reference are my Vmps r-40 with trt. The orion were powered by a pair of 4-ch amps SS, I dont remember but probably AR or ps audio, cd was a TACT. Bass extremely low even at low volume but good match for vocal without adding coloration. midrange not bad but not in the area of r-40, High excellent without distortion and good balance with mid and low, IMO excellent speaker for the money if you do build ...

I listened to a pair of Orions driven by 3 AKSAs, and have also listened quite extensively to VMPS, from 626R to RM40 with TRT caps. Bass performance was certainly not an issue this pair of Orions. Considering that the Orion was demo'd at a DIY gathering, there was zero room treatment, and the placement was not tweaked, it sounded great.

RM40 v. Orion? Quite different in presentation. The quality and naturalness of the open baffle bass from the Orions will be a 'must have' for some audiophiles (like me..). The good dispersion of the Orions compared to VMPS ribbons is also something I appreciate. The RM40s had a top end refinement which the Orions did not have. Sweetspot much narrower, but sweeter

? Those of us present felt that the Orions might have been suffering from some problems on the top end (XO issue??). If the bass on the Orions you heard was deficient, it's well possible that the bass eq was not 100%.

Juan R · « **Reply #11 on:** 25 Jan 2004, 02:19 pm »

NO, when I said low, was that speaker could go probably in the 30 with just low volume. I was really please with the bass performance. I think that is even better than my rm-40

WerTicus · « **Reply #12 on:** 25 Jan 2004, 04:41 pm »

i suppose 4khz is suitable head room from 1.4khz...

as for being hash... never

sfdoddsy · « **Reply #13 on:** 26 Jan 2004, 01:47 am »

I've built Orionish speakers (it was mine that JohnR heard). The differences are that I have doubled up on the midrange drivers and use Adire DPL12s for the bass and a digital crossover.

Assuming the standard Orions sound similar, which I am sure they will, they represent the best overall speaker I've owned, and I used to own such speakers as Wilsons, Genesis, Martin-Logan, Newform, Maggies and a bunch of others.

The biggest weakness is very low and very loud bass, which is why I went to the Adire drivers. The stengths are coherence, transparency, dynamics and the openess that only boxless dipoles seem to give.

BTW, the top section of Orions do make dandy effects speakers. My center and surround are just that and match the mains perfectly.

BTW2, the crossover for the mids is at 1.4kHz and the resonance for the magnesium driver is at 5kHz. L/R 24dB crossovers are used and a big notch filter so there are no problems.

BTW3, It is certainly possible to build a similar speaker using a lower crossover for the mids, but that would make it a four way, and not necessarily a better speaker.

Cheers

Steve

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 Jan 2004, 02:59 am »

Are the Orions sold as a kit or just a list of parts? I saw a couple of links a year ago but I can't find it now.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #15 on:** 26 Jan 2004, 04:08 am »

Quote from: Rob Babcock

Are the Orions sold as a kit or just a list of parts? I saw a couple of links a year ago but I can't find it now.

Rob,

It seems 'both' now.....here's the link to his site:

http://linkwitzlab.com/

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #16 on:** 26 Jan 2004, 04:18 am »

That's the one. Thanks, ChairGuy.

WerTicus · « **Reply #17 on:** 26 Jan 2004, 04:21 am »

yeah i think you can buy it as a kit or varying degrees of completed up to totally finished. pretty good idea i suppose.