My plan

taoggniklat · « **on:** 21 Jan 2010, 07:16 pm »

I didn't want to de-rail the other thread...

The Plan:

Budget $5000

I have no problem upgrading in stages.

I am moving into a rental home that has an unfinished basement. The home theater system will be setup in the basement and since this is a rental, I will not be able to make permanent modifications to the house. I know it is not ideal placement, but it is what I have to work with and I plan on doing room treatments where I can. I also do not have space for separate HT and 2 channel systems. This needs to be dual purpose.

I currently have a 46” Samsung that I am not upgrading now. My sources will be Comcast HD DVR, Sony BXP-BX2, Sony DVDR/VCR Combo, X-box 360 Elite and Desktop PC. I currently own all of these. Eventually down the road the Blu-Ray player, but for now it does what I need.

The other equipment I have (Rotel RA-970, QSC RMX850, Pioneer AVR and Paradigm speakers I plan to keep and re-use in some way but not necessarily in this system.

My low budget plan currently is this: (This is the most basic upgrade path for me using speakers I currently own. I eventually would consider getting the SongCenter but for now I don’t think that is an absolute must. I would rather put the money into the sub and electronics for now. I am also not opposed to DIY sub kits from Rythmic or eD.)

Front - Salk SongTowers OWII ($1850)
Center - Paradigm CC 350 ($0)
Surround – Paradigm Monitor 9 ($0)
Sub - SVS PB12-NSD or Rythmic F12 ($599/$699)

For electronics I am not sure exactly which way to go. I am interested in the Emotiva UMC-1 purely based on the price point, but I am open to other suggestions. I will most likely get an Emotiva amp (UPA-5) again due to the price point. If anyone has an alternative solution for AV pre/pro setup that won’t break the bank I am open to suggestions.

Ultimately down the road I hope to pick up a stereo pre-amp with HT/bypass and better amplification such as McCormack, Conrad Johnson (sadly I no longer own my MF200) or AVA SS gear. I also might be getting an MSB DAC from a friend, but I am not counting on it.

In the end, my dream system would be to move up to the Veracity series, bigger subs and better electronics.

Any suggestions and recommendations are much appreciated.

Thanks,
Jared

Nuance · « **Reply #1 on:** 21 Jan 2010, 08:01 pm »

Jared,

How big is the unfinished basement? Since it is a basement I assume there will be concrete floors and possibly walls, or is it partly finished? Having all of the concrete around generally means the room won't be very lossy, so you should get great bass response (especially down low), but perhaps a quicker in-room rolloff of the higher frequencies. Some room diffusion will probably help, and maybe treatments at the first reflection points.

Depending on the room size you may want to think about moving up to the 15" Rythmik. Those subwoofers don't have a ton of power (the amps), but if the room is not huge you should be okay. For what its worth, I feel they provide great sound quality.

I used to like Emotiva, but their last two products have had some quality control issues; issues I would never put up with. Honestly, you might want to steer clear for a little while until they get their act together. A good alternative is Parasound (classic series) and Audio by Van Alstine (Insight series). Both manufacturers are well regarded and build some amazing gear, plus their "introductory lines" won't break the bank.

Finally, a matching center channel will effect performance more than you might think. It is imperative to have the front three speakers timbre matched, else the tones, pitches and harmonics will be different. You may not notice, or maybe you will. I guess you could try the Paradigm center with the ST's first, then replace it if it bothers you.

So to add to your list:

Front: SongTower OWII's - $1850 (I assume this is a custom veneer)
Subwoofer: D15 SE - $999
Preamp: Parasound 2100 ($599) or AVA Insight SL ($899)
Amplifier: Parasound 2250 ($999 open box from Audio Advisor) or AVA Insight 440 ($1699)

Total: $4447 for Parasound and $5447 for AVA. You could always swap out the higher powered amps for the Parasound 2125 ($549.99 125 watts) or AVA Insight 240 ($999 120 watts), which would put both manufacturers systems under your budget.

Best luck to you. You've got a nice system already, and adding the ST's, a preamp and more power will make it even better. Enjoy!

P.S. Don't forget to budget for room treatments, and just use a receiver for movies. Find one with the connections and features you need, then use HT bypass to connect everything together.

taoggniklat · « **Reply #2 on:** 21 Jan 2010, 08:41 pm »

Quote from: Nuance on 21 Jan 2010, 08:01 pm

Jared,

How big is the unfinished basement? Since it is a basement I assume there will be cement floors and possibly walls, or is it partly finished? Having all of the cement around generally means the room won't be very lossy, so you should get great bass response (especially down low), but perhaps a quicker in-room rolloff of the higher frequencies. Some room diffusion will probably help, and maybe treatments at the first reflection points.

It is 1000 sqft of unfinished floor space. I have not actually seen it in person yet, but it is all open with concrete floor and walls on the exterior. Once I actually get to the house I will be able to see and figure out a plan of action.

Quote

Depending on the room size you may want to think about moving up to the 15" Rythmik. Those subwoofers don't have a ton of power (the amps), but if the room is not huge you should be okay. For what its worth, I feel they provide great sound quality.

I will check into that one.

Quote

I used to like Emotiva, but their last two products have had some quality control issues; issues I would never put up with. Honestly, you might want to steer clear for a little while until they get their act together.

Are you referring to their processor or amplifiers? Or Both? I have been following the issues on the UMC1 so yes, I am not sure it is what I wont. I was hoping that most of the big issues would be ironed out by the time I have moved and they got to my name on the "list". The amplifiers seem straight forward to me and yes, they may not be the best out there..but for the budget it seems like it would work in the interim.

Quote

A good alternative is Parasound (classic series) and Audio by Van Alstine (Insight series). Both manufacturers are well regarded and build some amazing gear, plus their "introductory lines" won't break the bank.

I have been checking Audiogon, ebay and some other sites for used gear. I liked the AVA gear I heard in Vintagebob's system.

Quote

Finally, a matching center channel will effect performance more than you might think. It is imperative to have the front three speakers timbre matched, else the tones, pitches and harmonics will be different. You may not notice, or maybe you will. I guess you could try the Paradigm center with the ST's first, then replace it if it bothers you.

That is my plan. The other reason I wanted to wait is because again, I am not sure exactly what the space will be like. Currently, my center channel sits on my TV stand, which puts the speaker closer to the back wall. When I talked with Jim about this he explained he could modify the songcenter, but again I want to see the space and figure out the layout before I get the songcenter. Obviously the Paradigm wont match the SongTowers sonically, but for now I can live with that.

Quote

So to add to your list:

Front: SongTower OWII's - $1850 (I assume this is a custom veneer)

Yes. Jim has already given me a quote for the finish I asked for on the ST's.

Thanks for all your input Nuance. I have learned a lot from your thread's on AVS and here. I think you and I have similar points of view for audio.

taoggniklat · « **Reply #3 on:** 21 Jan 2010, 09:06 pm »

Perhaps a bit about my approach to HT and Audio would help.

My background is that several years ago I worked for a small company called MSB Technology. After that I was an installer for a local shop. I have not been actively involved in the AV world since approx. 2001, therefore my familiarity with the current models and features is not up to par.

From my experience, my personal approach to hi-fi systems is that I prefer simple over bells and whistles.

I listen to a wide variety of music, but not so much rap and hip hop. My favorite style of music will have acoustic instruments, particularly guitar. But I also like to pop in a good rock album and crank it from time to time.

Nuance · « **Reply #4 on:** 21 Jan 2010, 09:07 pm »

Yes, it was their last two preamps (the 2-channel one and the new one). As far as I know their amps are just fine. Good luck to you sir!

kip_ · « **Reply #5 on:** 21 Jan 2010, 09:13 pm »

I would suggest a receiver or pre/pro with active room equalization such as Audyssey. I'd also run thick carpet on the floor rather than hardwood.

Also keep in mind that you can buy a moderately priced AVR now and add on external amps later.

For subs, a ported sub will generally (not always) have more output than a sealed sub with the same size driver. Epik and eD both have many subs that would suit your needs, and eD can now veneer their subs as well. How large of a sub can you tolerate?

taoggniklat · « **Reply #6 on:** 21 Jan 2010, 09:27 pm »

Quote from: kip_ on 21 Jan 2010, 09:13 pm

I would suggest a receiver or pre/pro with active room equalization such as Audyssey. I'd also run thick carpet on the floor rather than hardwood.

Also keep in mind that you can buy a moderately priced AVR now and add on external amps later.

Again I am not familiar with the model numbers, which would you recommend?

Quote

For subs, a ported sub will generally (not always) have more output than a sealed sub with the same size driver. Epik and eD both have many subs that would suit your needs, and eD can now veneer their subs as well. How large of a sub can you tolerate?

Considering that this will be a basement, size pretty much is limited by getting it through the doorway.

taoggniklat · « **Reply #7 on:** 21 Jan 2010, 10:01 pm »

Found a Yamaha RX-V863 for under $500. Looks like it has active eq and pre-amp.

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=567570&CTID=5000300

kip_ · « **Reply #8 on:** 21 Jan 2010, 10:15 pm »

Quote from: taoggniklat on 21 Jan 2010, 10:01 pm

Found a Yamaha RX-V863 for under $500. Looks like it has active eq and pre-amp.

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=567570&CTID=5000300

I'm not in the market for a receiver at the moment, and the technology changes very very quickly. I will say that my Harman-Kardon is quite neutral, and I've heard good things about that Yamaha model on AVS forum as well.

I would get something with the number of inputs you need, room equalization, lossless sound via HDMI, and has a relatively neutral sound character. As for brands, Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, HK are all good choices.

Perhaps something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Harman-Kardon-7-1-Channel-Processing-Upscaling/dp/B002IKKFUA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1264112092&sr=8-2

or the slightly cheaper 65wpc model:

http://www.amazon.com/Harman-Kardon-7-1-Channel-Processing-Upscaling/dp/B002IKKFU0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1264112092&sr=8-1

kip_ · « **Reply #9 on:** 21 Jan 2010, 10:17 pm »

Quote from: taoggniklat on 21 Jan 2010, 09:27 pm

Again I am not familiar with the model numbers, which would you recommend?

Considering that this will be a basement, size pretty much is limited by getting it through the doorway.

Here are a few to consider -

http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/portedphoenix.html
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=618

Do you care if it's veneered or is flat black ok?

taoggniklat · « **Reply #10 on:** 21 Jan 2010, 10:21 pm »

Quote from: kip_ on 21 Jan 2010, 10:17 pm

Here are a few to consider -

http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/portedphoenix.html
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=618

Do you care if it's veneered or is flat black ok?

The finish on the sub is not super important. Black is just fine. Someday when I have my own house and can build a room from the ground up I might care more about a ncie finish, but for now that is just an added cost that wont improve the SQ.

Thanks for the suggestions.

s_cervin · « **Reply #11 on:** 21 Jan 2010, 11:00 pm »

I ended up throwing all my money at the speakers (HT3 & HTC) because I feel they offer the greatest difference in sound quality (already have a treated room). With my wife expecting #2 (now 3 months old) I knew it would be the last time I would have that kind of $$$. I was powering them with Odyssey Audio Stratos Extreme SE. My electronics are a duet into a Marantz Sr7002 that I use for HT and 2-channel.

I've replaced the amp with a Belles 350A Ref and am considering a few different preamps, but there are many other things needing attention around the house...
a)subs
b)hydraulic steering on the boat
c)projector
d)Empirical DAC/Pace-Car
e)preamp- Cary SLP-05

Too much stuff and not enough time or $$$$

taoggniklat · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 Jan 2010, 05:16 pm »

So last week Vintagebob invited me over to check out his system. I was very impressed and quickly realized that this was the system I wanted to put together.

I have been showing my wife numerous photos of Salk speakers asking her if she liked the finish. Finally she asked me why I kept showing her pictures of speakers. I replied that I was considering getting a pair and that I wanted to make sure she would be happy with the finish. She then replied, "but you have speakers...don't they work?"

At that point I knew I needed her to experience the Salk's first hand and that she has never experienced a high end audio system, so I contacted Bob again and he graciously opened up his home again. Bob and I planned a Josh Groban's concert DVD "Awake" as Groban is my wife's favorite (strategic planning!).

So after greeting each other and getting a chance to meet Bob's girlfriend and a glass of champaign in hand, we sat down for some great entertainment.

As soon as the concert started my wife turned to me and said "Wow! The sound is so clear! His voice is so beautiful!" This put a huge grin on my face.

We listened to some more tracks and throughout the show, she kept telling me how she listens to this album all the time in her car, but she never knew the instruments could sound so good. This was music to my ears. I think she was beginning to understand why I am so crazy about audio.

At this point my wife started asking more questions about the equipment and speakers. At one point she asked if a subwoofer was being used and I replied yes and pointed it out to her. Her first response was "Wow I thought that was just a piece of furniture!"

After a while we put on some 2 channel music (Salk CD, various other tracks from Bob's library...even some LP's) to show her what stereo can do. The first thing she asked me was if the music was coming out of the center speaker...I replied no it was just the two left and right speakers. "Wow" she whispered to herself. "I love how clear the instruments sound, I could listen to this all day."

Finally, we played Bolt to demonstrate the HT capabilities and give the sub a bigger workout. In short, she loved it and exclaimed "I'm sold"

All in all it was a great evening and many thanks to Bob for letting us invade his home. I truly appreciate it. I think she understands now what I am trying to do.

Jared

ctouhey · « **Reply #13 on:** 22 Jan 2010, 05:26 pm »

Congratulations, Jared!

Neither my wife or I have actually heard a pair of Salks; we are purchasing on faith. The second subwoofer is being delivered late this afternoon, so now I'm just waiting on the HT3s and HTC.

I hope we both respond in a similar fashion as your wife!

Chris

taoggniklat · « **Reply #14 on:** 22 Jan 2010, 09:14 pm »

Quote from: ctouhey on 22 Jan 2010, 05:26 pm

Congratulations, Jared!

Neither my wife or I have actually heard a pair of Salks; we are purchasing on faith. The second subwoofer is being delivered late this afternoon, so now I'm just waiting on the HT3s and HTC.

I hope we both respond in a similar fashion as your wife!

Chris

You won't be disappointed.

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #15 on:** 22 Jan 2010, 10:04 pm »

Quote from: taoggniklat on 22 Jan 2010, 05:16 pm

So last week Vintagebob invited me over to check out his system. I was very impressed and quickly realized that this was the system I wanted to put together.

Vintagebob is driving those Salks with some mighty nice electronics, too.

taoggniklat · « **Reply #16 on:** 22 Jan 2010, 10:26 pm »

Quote from: oneinthepipe on 22 Jan 2010, 10:04 pm

Vintagebob is driving those Salks with some mighty nice electronics, too.

Yes, and the great thing is that the equipment is not ridiculously expensive. AVA gear is quite reasonable for the performance.

Nuance · « **Reply #17 on:** 22 Jan 2010, 11:33 pm »

Congrats, Jared; that's fantastic news. It's never easy to convince the woman to invest a good chunk of money in "unnecessary man toys." Sounds like they'll be spouse toys instead (no sexual pun intended). Well done sir!

taoggniklat · « **Reply #18 on:** 22 Jan 2010, 11:50 pm »

Jared, not Jaded

Nuance · « **Reply #19 on:** 23 Jan 2010, 05:28 am »

Quote from: taoggniklat on 22 Jan 2010, 11:50 pm

Jared, not Jaded

Yeah I know...was typing on the Droid and it auto-spell checked. Sorry.