[maxwalrath]

No need to laugh Wayne, that's my plan.

[Donman]

Well, just registered on ths forum today, though I've followed a bunch of the Panny threads since November.  I gave in and ordered- 3 days ago- the 25 since I got a good deal on it($180) but am now getting the feeling of regret for not holding out for a 45, based on the recent link over to the site giving that very detailed comparo of the two units.(AV science forum?) Anway, I don't want to drone to long but this is my setup.  Very basic and I am no way into the hobby as deep as most on here.  Currenty in my living room, Maggie 1.5, HK AVR-80 sourced by a JVC DVD-A changer(9300?), BPS 400 in one front corner, MX-125 in a back one.  Surround duties handled by super zeros.   Plan is to replace the maggies with a pair of JBL S-38(currently in bedroom doing nothing) and take maggies and one sub up to a spare room with the Panny and a digital source(yet to get)and have a 2-channel room.  I enjoy the maggies in every respect and am content with their sound with my current receiver.  With no other mods, can I expect to notice any change in their performance with the panny over the HK?  Power seems comparable, though I know the HK can drive them to crazy levels. Guess I'm just wanting to hear that the panny isn't a step down from the HK in stock form for what I intend.  Thanks for reading.

[Zero]

Man, still on the fence with this one.

I want to get the Panny X45 before it becomes a pain in the ass to find.  Im incredibly low on funds so this would be my last toy for awhile...

Though I must confess, the thought of spending nearly double *and possibly triple* for a modification on an inexpensive unit with hopes of it achieving performance over that of the "big dawgs"....  Well its still very hard to digest!  

Decisions, decisions.  So much harder when your broke.

[PeteG]

The XR25 & XR45 share the same circuit board, you can see how much better the power supply is on the XR45, pic is the XR25 and the empty space,bottom center is were the bigger PS go's for the XR45. Like Wayne said that reason alone I would get the XR45.

I wasn't looking for the new panny but I too walked in on a open box XR25 (no box,manual,cables) for a very good price.

[csero]

The empty space is not a bigger PS, but it seems the XR-25 works with a fixed (~42V) Equibit power stage voltage, while the 45 using a secondary variable PS (~ 4V - 42V) for the Variable Gain Digital Amplifier.
The 45 adjust the volume vith changing the PS voltage in a 20dB range to reduce bit loss in the digital volume control.
The bit loss is bad, the secondary supply is also not a champion, but it seems the 45 with VGDA is better compromise for the normal use.
The biggest tweak you can do with the Pana is to feed the output stage with a battery supply, as the amp is really an open loop digital amp, without feedback and PSRR.

[dwk]

The empty space is not a bigger PS, but it seems the XR-25 works with a fixed (~42V) Equibit power stage voltage, while the 45 using a secondary variable PS (~ 4V - 42V) for the Variable Gain Digital Amplifier.
The 45 adjust the volume vith changing the PS voltage in a 20dB range to reduce bit loss in the digital volume control.
The bit loss is bad, the secondary supply is also not a champion, but it seems the 45 with VGDA is better compromise for the normal use.
The biggest tweak you can do with the  ...

Ummm, are you absolutely sure about that? I know that the XR-10 uses a variable supply, but I believe the 25 and 45 both use a fixed supply, with an extra stage of filtering in the 45. I assume that Wayne has the Service Manual for the 45 which should cover this.

I agree that with relatively efficient speakers a battery supply is an attractive option - I have a few 12V SLA's on the way to try with my pannys.

[csero]

No, I don't have the 45 or the service manual, but the parts present on the 45 internals pics and missing on the 25 looks exactly like the variable supply in the 10.

[csero]

Actually websites adverize both with VGDA, while those who seen the service manual (which one?) say they are fixed voltage. So the picture is a bit scrambled until somebody measure the PS voltage on both.

[sunshinedawg]

My 45 just arrived, I have just begun breaking it in.  Even stock right out of the box it sounds so sweet in the mids and highs!  It is a little bright and edgy in the high freqs.  I'm hoping that it doesn't needs the Bybees, but I fear this is what negates the brightness.  I would like to do an a/b with/without the Bybees.  I have big spades, they won't even come close to fitting on the stock 45!

[Code Chemist]

Has anyone listened to the headphone jack of the Panny with a really good pair of headphones (Sennheiser 600/650 for example)? If so, what was your impression?

[Tyson]

I have.  It certainly does not equal my Radii OTL tube headphone amp, or my seriously modded X-Can's headphone amp, or my PPA, but it is still pretty good, very livable.  I figured it would be the typical sound of bright and thin with poor bass.  But the frequency response is pretty even, it's not bright/harsh, the only place it really loses out to the really good headphone amps is in the transparency and dynamics department.  I'd put it on a similar level to maybe a META without the premium parts.

Since I do a lot of headphone listening as well, I wonder if this is something Wayne could take a look at modding as well. . .

[Wayne1]

The headphone amp section can be upgraded. Just throw money at it

It has a pair of D/A convertors, several coupling caps, a pair of op amps, a small power supply etc. All of these parts can be upgraded. It is not part of my mod design, so far. If anyone is interested in having this as a option, I will work on it after the main mod design is finalized

[Code Chemist]

I'm interested.  Aproximately how much would the mods be? Just the headphone mods...not the whole enchilada.  

[Tyson]

OK, I've been running in the stock unit on my RM40's, and the "honeymoon" of newness is over, so I'd like to share a few of my thoughts on the stock panny.  

In a nutshell, it is good but not great, and I probably could not live with it as my main 2 channel setup.  Dynamics are good, but the AVA is better.  Bass is good, about the same quality as the AVA.  Highs are smooth (with bybee's), but too prominent.  And there is a lack of weight in the lower mids, which is my main complaint against the sound of the stock unit.  Makes the overall presentation of the music sound thin.

On the plus side, the imaging and spatial presentation is very, very good.

I did NOT hear these weaknesses with the modded panny, but I was also listening to it for only a short time.  I am now much more familiar with the sound of the stock panny, so it should give me a much better platform to make judgements on the modded panny.  Only 3 more days before the big listening showdown. . .

[fredgarvin]

Just thought I would chime in, I am very pleased with the unit for home theater use but when I ran it in my music only system with RM1's, I felt it was not as satisfying. The main weaknesses were as Tyson described, thin upper bass/low mid, but for me the high end was not prominent but a little flat and lacking the transparency I prefer. An interesting cymbal sound, very authentic, brassy, tonality but lacking the air and shimmer.Good bass response and in home theater use, the sub out is very nice except for the 100hz cutoff which renders my towers almost useless...