[macrojack]

Meretricious persiflage, all. Focus your judgement and scorn on Wall Street. Those people actually hurt you. The athletes damaged nothing other than your fantasies.

[woodsyi]

Let's not.  We keep it to sports here on AC.

Thanks.

[woodsyi]

I heard an interview with Tom Davis (Committee Chair at the time of McGwire hearing) this morning who lambasted AG Gonzales for refusing to give immunity to Mark to talk freely.  The night before the hearing, MM met with the committee members and talked about his use of steroids and HGH (off the record).  He wanted to come clean but wanted immunity because what he admitted could have been used in Florida and other states against him if a hot shot prosecutor wanted fame for going after MM.  Davis asked for immunity and Gonzales declined.  Mark had to shut up for fear of prosecution since he just remarried and had an infant to consider.  Davis said that MM apologized for taking the 5th but said he would come clean later (after the 5 year Statute of Limitation).  Davis was bitter that Gonzales did not give MM the immunity to talk freely.  Imagine what we could have had if MM were given the immunity to talk.   

[goldlizsts]

Let's not.  We keep it to sports here on AC.

Thanks.

Hi,

Why?  If A/C allows sports (I always thought AC is only Audio), even opera and camera, why not Wall St. talk?  Are we missing something?    Thanks.  (Not that I'm crazy at learning more about MM.... I don't pay $2K to see a baseball game with MM, or AR playing.) 

[ctviggen]

Mainly because Wall Street has nothing to do with the topic at hand. 

Woodsyi's comments just prove what an idiot Gonzales was. 

[woodsyi]

Because Wall Street talk will bring on macro econ policy. 
This will turn (or is) politics.
This will make someone piss somebody off because (s)he had the temerity to have a different political view.
We lock the thread, clean up and return it.
More pissing matches.
Then we trash the whole thing.
Someone will ask why it was censured.
We explain.
And so on.



The reason we have the Pub is to provide a place to kick back, chill and enjoy the company of friends we found on AC.  The camaraderie and friendship thus deepened bring us back to AC for more and more.  Politics and Religions do the opposite.  Just like talking about weight control with your spouse, nothing good ever comes out of it.  So, we just made it a policy not to have them.

[macrojack]

Is Attorney General Gonzalez a political figure? He found his way into this without any reference to Wall St.
I merely wanted to point out that the resentment and distaste being directed toward insignificant athletes might be better directed toward those who have really earned those feelings. I did not recommend discussing Wall Street because I share Woodsyi certainty that our membership is incapable of doing so without going all Fox about it.

[viggen]

I have a handful of Mcgwire '85 Topps cards.  I purchased most for about $20 per back in '89.  I think they went up to $200+ per.  A pretty good investment until the whole steroid fiasco.  It's worth less than $15 per now? 

I got a grip of Bonds '87 Fleer too.  I think they are worth less than $5 now.  I got these from wax packs though.  So, didn't lose too much.

My personal feeling is baseball/football/basketball is relatively more entertainment than sports.  So, I don't really care what these athletes do to make their money.  It's just hard to compare stats ie. Ruth vs McGwire.  It's more business than ethics here...

Doping in other sports like biking or running is a bigger deal I think probably because it is more of an individual sport relative to baseball...

[pjchappy]

Let's not.  We keep it to sports here on AC.

Thanks.

Well, not just sport here in The Pub. . .   

[TheChairGuy]

Goose Gossage weighing in - quite correctly to me:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AsHBp0zsi0OTcbZ95j9J7zw5nYcB?slug=ap-mcgwire-steroids&prov=ap&type=lgns

John

[zybar]

Goose Gossage weighing in - quite correctly to me:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AsHBp0zsi0OTcbZ95j9J7zw5nYcB?slug=ap-mcgwire-steroids&prov=ap&type=lgns

John

Should we also ban all of the HOF's who took amphetamines?  These illegal drugs clearly gave them an advantage over their peers and allowed them to improve their performance.

John, this is one we will just have to agree to disagree on.

George 

[TheChairGuy]

John, this is one we will just have to agree to disagree on.

George

It's okay by me, George.  We heartily disagreed on lying filthy Barry Bonds, too a while back

There is a SUBSTANTIAL difference between those that took amphetamines and muscle-building aids.  Among the benefits of testosterone are:

(1) increase the body’s ability to utilize protein, allowing an athlete to train with greater intensity without going into negative nitrogen balance (losing muscle mass)

(2) increase the ability to build muscle mass

(3) increase the ability to build strength

(4) increase the ability to build endurance

(5) act as an anti-inflammatory, both helping to protect the body from injury and speeding up recovery after injury has occurred

Anabolic steroids have no peer among performance enhancing drugs. From bat and leg speed to enhanced vision - testosterone helps a hitter hit further and more successfully and a pitcher pitch faster with enhanced durability, as well.

Amphetamines are not much more helpful than a few good sized strong cups of coffee and the (helpful) caffeine they contain. 

No way do these aids to performance have the kick of synthetic testosterone for the athlete. So, agreed to disagree on this one, too

John

[droht]

I agree that steroids are way more useful to athletes than amphetamines, and I found McGwire to be idiotic in suggesting that they did not help him hit HRs.  However, it is hard for me to think one group of players should be punished more simply because they took better drugs than another group of players.  While I think the Steroid Era has harmed the game, I don't see how these guys should be banned when they didn't even break the rules of the game, afaik.  It's a different story with anyone testing positive after steroids were banned - hello Manny - but before that point it's tough to come down hard on the juicers imo.

Baseball has always been a game about numbers.  The comparisons between players and eras has always been far from perfect.  The steroid aided stats are just another part of that story, and make for even more compelling discussions at corner bars, in barber shops, and now on internet forums.  I'm still looking at the 61 Roger Maris put up and the 755 from Hammerin' Hank as THE numbers in baseball.