[jackman]

I agree that speed was used throughout the history of baseball and that perf enhancing were around in one form or another long before Sammy, Mark and Bonds came along, but I believe steroids and HGH usage was much more prevalent during this era.  There is a reason so many long standing records were shattered (not unlike Sammy's corked bat) during the PED era.  Actually, there were several reasons records were smashed unrelated to PED's (smaller parks, juiced balls, lack of good pitching, lower mound, etc.) but steriods were a big and significant one. 

It sucks that so many innocent players will be tainted by the cheats but it's hard to tell the guilty from the innocent.  Players like Frank Thomas and Jim Thome are unfortunate victims because I don't think they cheated, and they were able to perform so well against juiced pitchers. 

For now, I'm still against putting these cheaters in the hall along side greats like Mantle, Ruth, Dimagio and Gibson.  While I'm at it, I also want to say that I'm still pissed Robbie Alomar was passed over.  If this guy wore a Yankee or Red Sox uniform throughout his career, he would be in.  Alomar was the best second baseman to ever play the game (IMO), at least the best I have ever seen play the game (screw Joe Morgan)  He earned his place in the hall.

Cheers,

J

[golfugh]

John

I don't disagree with what you just said, BUT who's to say who did or didn't - and there are plenty in each sports HOF who did.

Agreed it needs to stop!

Put them in the HOF based on accomplishments as George said, and end the use.

Mark

[golfugh]

J

Beg to differ, but steroids was passed out like candy at the college level in the late 70's.  If you wanted them the coach would supply.

[rajacat]

What about Babe Ruth? I bet he often had a beer or two before a game to get loose.  Of course he needed them to wash the hot dogs down . Micky Mantle was known to play under the influence occasionally. Granted alcohol isn't known to be performance enhancing but it might help with a case of the jitters thereby enhancing performance. Chewing tobacco also helps focus the mind.

-Roy

[zybar]

George/zybar,

They ALL should be barred from the HOF and pensions revoked. No different than my response to Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Antonio Pettigrew, Floyd Landis and others in Track & Field, Bicycling or any other sport that were caught.

They're cheats and we all paid $$ to see them hit the long ball or run or throw faster....and need to be denied forgiveness for this cheating.

I was offered 'juice' by the Powerlifting team manager at Villanova in 1981/82 while lifting in the weight room (I declined...you can believe that or not ).  Steroids have been a not-so-well known secret at the MLB level for years before that.   It's been tolerated for too long - it needs to stop.

I don't expect to get away with cheating if I do it - whether it's on my taxes or my wife - neither should they

John

John,

I understand your viewpoint, but I don't think you are comparing apples to apples.  While I fully understand appreciate that taking certain PED's was illegal before official testing began, you can't ignore the fact that it was an accepted practice within baseball (and other sports as well) to allow players to take the drugs.  When you compare what Sosa, Binds, McGwire, etc... did before official testing was agreed to, to the other athletes you named who failed tests that they agreed to take and pass, it just isn't the same.

Because we can't know who definitely did what and for how long, the correct way to approach it is to look at the era as a whole and judge things in that fashion.

George

[zybar]

...While I'm at it, I also want to say that I'm still pissed Robbie Alomar was passed over.  If this guy wore a Yankee or Red Sox uniform throughout his career, he would be in.  Alomar was the best second baseman to ever play the game (IMO), at least the best I have ever seen play the game (screw Joe Morgan)  He earned his place in the hall.

Cheers,

J

Jackman,

Alomar didn't make it into the HOF on the first ballot due to the Hirschbeck incident - not because anybody denies his talent or because he didn't wear a Yankees or Red Sox uniform.

While Alomar was an outstanding player, not sure he is the best second baseman ever.  Hard to put Robbie in front of Morgan, Sandberg, Hornsby, and Robinson.

George

[S Clark]

I'd rather see Charlie Hustle go in than the steroid giants.

[satfrat]

I'd rather see Charlie Hustle go in the the steroid giants.

AGREED!!!

[jackman]

Hi George,

I agree the spitting ruined his chances of a first ballot selection, he will get in next go around.  Regarding his play, defensively, Roberto was better than any of the names you mentioned.  The only thing he didn't do is have a long career.  His stats, offensively, really dropped at the end of his playing days. 

I never watched many of Morgan's games (other than the World Series games, allstar games and when the Reds played the Cubs), but in the games I caught, I never saw Morgan play defense like Alomar.  Robby was a better hitter but Joe had slightly more power and was a better base stealer (Alomar was an excellent baserunner).  Also, I am a Cub fan and I watched tons of Sandberg's games.  He was a great hitter and he fielded all of the balls hit in his direction but he didn't come close to Alomar's range.  Alomar was a magician at second, while Ryno never got his uniform dirty. 

Sorry, but if Alomar played in a market like NYC or Boston, he would be in the hall.  He never got the "Good" attention he deserved.  He didn't play as long as some of the greats but when he played, he was the best I have ever seen.  I'm not a fanboy.  For years I hated him because of the spitting.  It was poor sportsmanship and he deserved his punishment.

To the "Charlie Hustle" fan.  Screw Pete Rose.  If Rose gets into the hall of fame, I will never attend another baseball game as long as I live.  Pete Rose is scum. 

[JackD201]

IMO the way to rid pro sports of PEDs is to get to the root of it.

Longer contracts and no performance bonuses. Let the team owner's savings go into an equitably distributed profit sharing scheme for both the players and coaching/training staff. That way either the whole team juices or nobody does 

[S Clark]

  Pete Rose is scum.

...and the steroid cheaters are somehow better?  It really doesn't matter to me.  I stopped following baseball years ago, and what little interest I used to have died with the steroid era. But there is no difference between baseball, track, or bicycling- cheating should not be rewarded, and the "everyone does it" excuse is invalid.

[hmen]

Could somebody please explain to me how Gaylord Perry can be in the Hall of Fame after admitting that he cheated his entire career but people who cheated with steroids don't belong?

Alomar will make it in the next couple of years. There are writers who feel he belongs but shouldn't have the status of getting in on the first ballot.

I think Pete rose should be in the HOF because of what he did on the field but his plaque should say that he was banned for life for gambling (that's my grand compromise proposal).

Babe Ruth's drinking, over eating and carousing could not have helped his statistics. Considering the way he lived, his numbers are even more impressive.     

[Rob Babcock]

I've at least regained a modicum of respect for Big Mac for finally manning up and telling the truth.  Yeah, he should have done it years ago but better late than never.  I care nothing for baseball- they put him in the hall or not, doesn't matter to me at all.  From a purely academic point of view I think none of the cheaters should be in, but then I guess the HOF would be virtually empty.

Funny, I never watched a game after Kirby Puckett hung it up, but virtually everyone with a TV, fan or not, was glued to the set when Mac or Sosa came up to bat.  I recall that no matter what was on, a little PiP window would pop up.  It really seemed like a big deal, a genuine piece of history.  In retrospect it was just a juicers duel.  Sad.

[cujobob]

The HOF is a joke...people have always cheated...and it's always been wrong.  However, Pete Rose didn't cheat during his playing days...and he should get in as a player.  Anyone who juiced should not be allowed in.

I'm irritated because Ozzie Smith is a HOFer but Alan Trammell is not...that's insane.

While we're at it, fix the gold glove awards... giving it to has-beens and offensive players (Jeter, Mauer) makes me sick.

Every sport is screwed up...the refs are crooked in every sport.  Too much money out there.

[zybar]

Hi George,

I agree the spitting ruined his chances of a first ballot selection, he will get in next go around.  Regarding his play, defensively, Roberto was better than any of the names you mentioned.  The only thing he didn't do is have a long career.  His stats, offensively, really dropped at the end of his playing days. 

I never watched many of Morgan's games (other than the World Series games, allstar games and when the Reds played the Cubs), but in the games I caught, I never saw Morgan play defense like Alomar.  Robby was a better hitter but Joe had slightly more power and was a better base stealer (Alomar was an excellent baserunner).  Also, I am a Cub fan and I watched tons of Sandberg's games.  He was a great hitter and he fielded all of the balls hit in his direction but he didn't come close to Alomar's range.  Alomar was a magician at second, while Ryno never got his uniform dirty. 

Sorry, but if Alomar played in a market like NYC or Boston, he would be in the hall.  He never got the "Good" attention he deserved.  He didn't play as long as some of the greats but when he played, he was the best I have ever seen.  I'm not a fanboy.  For years I hated him because of the spitting.  It was poor sportsmanship and he deserved his punishment.

To the "Charlie Hustle" fan.  Screw Pete Rose.  If Rose gets into the hall of fame, I will never attend another baseball game as long as I live.  Pete Rose is scum.

I totally agree with you that Alomar was the superior defensive player.  However, his offensive numbers aren't quite at the same level as Morgan and  Hornsby, while Sandberg's are pretty much equal to Robbie's.  I guess what tips it in their favor over Alomar is the MVP awards.  Regardless, I can fully respect somebody saying Alomar is one of the best or even the best second baseman - certainly not out of line.

BTW, the best double play combo I have ever seen was Alomar and Vizquel - they truly were capable of the spectacular every single day they played together.



George

[TheChairGuy]

...and the steroid cheaters are somehow better?  It really doesn't matter to me.  I stopped following baseball years ago, and what little interest I used to have died with the steroid era. But there is no difference between baseball, track, or bicycling- cheating should not be rewarded, and the "everyone does it" excuse is invalid.

Exactly - thank you, Scott

PED's (ie, steroids and to a lesser known extent, human growth hormone) enhance athletic prowess directly - alcohol and gambling do not.  They don't equal one another even casually - so one shouldn't try the users equally.

The steroid users enhanced their performance, making a mockery of the greats that played the game in years past and padded their bank accounts with riches earned by hitting the long ball (or tossing 90mph fastballs, etc) due to this performance enhancement. Tho it was not tested for before fairly recently, it was explicitly known to be illegal to do so by MLB.  That the owners and management of MLB looked askew as cheats continue(d) to use it did not matter - the cheats knew they were cheating and had a choice to say no

Anyone that has been found to have taken steroids and other anabolic aids, should be tossed from baseball, denied entry to the HOF, records scrubbed clean as if they never played and denied a pension.  That would send the right message to everyone right down to the Little Leagues that it will not be tolerated.

Allowing McGwire back as St. Louis hitting coach, patting him on the back with forgiveness, giving him a way back to the Hall of Fame and giving him a big, fat pension based on the many years of overpaid service to the game of baseball (due to use of steroids) gives the message to all cheats that it was okay to have done what they did. 

Now if you'll excuse me, I think I'll (gently) bump into an old rich lady today in my town, lift her wallet from her pocketbook while she goes down, spend the cash and some credit cards in a local bar and Best Buy at her expense - then turn myself in at the local Police Station. 

I then hope they are as lenient with me as some of you are with McGwire and the other cheats

John

[jackman]

Hi George,

Alomar/Visquel is the best middle infield defensive combo to ever live.  I also thought Alomar/Ripken was pretty darn good.  In all the talk about Ripken's longevity, consecutive game streak, and power numbers, his defense is rarely mentioned.  Ripkin did not have the flashy highlight reel plays of Visquel or Ozzy Smith but he was very good in the field.  Excellent range, great arm and he rarely made an error.  That's a discussion for another day! 

Robbie was a better hitter than Morgan (arguably) but Morgan had slightly more punch. Robbie had way fewer at bats than Morgan but I believe he had a much better (30 points) average and a better OBP.  Alomar's defense was better than Morgan's, the best of his era and the best of any era IMO.  Great picture by the way! 

The Trammel/Ozzy Smith discussion is not new.  Trammel was a great shortstop and he had very good offensive numbers.  Ozzy was an inconsistent/weak hitter but was arguably the best defensive ss to ever play the game.  IMO, he got to more balls than Trammel and Visquel. 

Pete Rose gambled on baseball and was a total scumbag.  For me, Pete's offenses were worse than McGuire's or Bonds'.  If Pete Rose gets into the hall, I will never watch or attend another baseball game again (unless Pete is inducted posthumously).  Everyone has an opinion and I don't think mine will ever change.  Pete only has himself to blame.

Cheers,

J

[Bigfish]

Now if you'll excuse me, I think I'll (gently) bump into an old rich lady today in my town, lift her wallet from her pocketbook while she goes down, spend the cash and some credit cards in a local bar and Best Buy at her expense - then turn myself in at the local Police Station.

I then hope they are as lenient with me as some of you are with McGwire and the other cheats

John

Good luck with that John.  You will end-up just like I would with about 20 behind bars!


At least you have to give the NFL some credit for recognizing that they had a problem and developed tough policies for violators.  The NFL system is not prefect and they continue to work to improve how information about banned substances is provided to the players.  However, they maintain a firm stance that it is the players responsibility to know what they are putting into their bodies. 

I know that you have Players Unions fighting for the rights of the players but it is hard to understand why the unions would be against protecting the long term health of the game.  If no one takes performance enhancing substances it would seem to this old fart that you would still have competitive sports!

Ken

[zybar]

Hi George,

Alomar/Visquel is the best middle infield defensive combo to ever live.  I also thought Alomar/Ripken was pretty darn good.  In all the talk about Ripken's longevity, consecutive game streak, and power numbers, his defense is rarely mentioned.  Ripkin did not have the flashy highlight reel plays of Visquel or Ozzy Smith but he was very good in the field.  Excellent range, great arm and he rarely made an error.  That's a discussion for another day! 

Robbie was a better hitter than Morgan (arguably) but Morgan had slightly more punch. Robbie had way fewer at bats than Morgan but I believe he had a much better (30 points) average and a better OBP.  Alomar's defense was better than Morgan's, the best of his era and the best of any era IMO.  Great picture by the way! 

The Trammel/Ozzy Smith discussion is not new.  Trammel was a great shortstop and he had very good offensive numbers.  Ozzy was an inconsistent/weak hitter but was arguably the best defensive ss to ever play the game.  IMO, he got to more balls than Trammel and Visquel. 

Pete Rose gambled on baseball and was a total scumbag.  For me, Pete's offenses were worse than McGuire's or Bonds'.  If Pete Rose gets into the hall, I will never watch or attend another baseball game again (unless Pete is inducted posthumously).  Everyone has an opinion and I don't think mine will ever change.  Pete only has himself to blame.

Cheers,

J

Below are some stats for Morgan and Alomar.  These stats are unadjusted for their era and you need to factor that into play when looking at them.  Clearly the era in which Alomar played had significantly higher offensive numbers than the era in which Morgan played.

George


Joe Morgan

In his 22-year career, he had a

.271 average,
.392 on base percentage
268 home runs
1133 RBI
1650 runs scored
2517 base hits
689 stolen bases.

He was selected to the All-Star team ten times, starting at second for seven of them.

He won five consecutive Gold Glove awards in the mid 70's. He won one Silver Slugger Award, was an All-Star game MVP in 1972 and won back-to-back MVP awards in 1975 and 1976. He was also a great leader and winner, as he led his teams to the World Series four times, winning two of them.

Roberto Alomar

In his 17-year career, he had

.300 average
210 home runs
1134 RBI
1508 runs scored
2724 base hits
474 stolen bases

He was selected to the All Star team twelve times, starting at second for nine of them.

He is arguably the greatest defensive second basemen of all-time, leading all second basemen with ten Gold Glove awards throughout the 90's and into the 2000's. He also won the Silver Slugger Award four times.  Finally, he won two World Series titles with the Blue Jays.

[jackman]

Hi George,

Looking at those numbers, you could make a good case for Alomar doing more offensively in 5 fewer years.  Plus, he didn't have the advantage of playing on a team like the Reds for his whole career, as Morgan did.  Alomar played on some very solid teams but Morgan's Reds teams were stacked.  You had to pitch to him because there were great hitters throughtout that lineup.  In addition, Alomar's post season record kills Morgans.  Alomar hit .313 with a .381 OBP in 58 postseason games, including .347 with an OBP of .407 in 2 world series appearences.  Morgan hit something like .180 in 50 postseason games. 

Plus, Alomar was a switch hitter who was one of the best at advancing runners (sacrifice) and a great clutch hitter.  And Alomar was regarded as the best at his position for a decade (in the 90's).  The only area where Morgan has him beat is leadership and that's hard to quantify.