Stacked equipment questions...

max190 · « **on:** 30 Dec 2009, 04:44 pm »

My setup today bottom up - concrete foundation, rubber back berber carpeting, fairly heavy table, Bada tube buffered output CDP that weighs about 24lbs, Bada tube hybrid int that weighs about 33lbs, Dynaudio Contour s3.4's, Morrow MA1's and Belden 10ga.

Is it bad to stack like this?
Is the weight of the int helping or hurting the CDP with regards to internal vibration?
My system is dead quiet and sounds excellent.
If I keep the config this way and add some of your products, what can I expect?
Why should I purchase from you versus what Mapleshade has to offer?

Any info is appreciated.
Thanks,

Herbie · « **Reply #1 on:** 30 Dec 2009, 05:04 pm »

Hi, max190. It's virtually always better, sonically, to have components separated and isolated from one another. Stacking is sometimes unavoidable, however. If your system sounds excellent, perhaps there's not too much need for concern. Even so, the system will most likely sound even more excellent by isolating the preamp and CD player.

Placing a set of four Tenderfeet between stacked components is the best solution that I know of. Upgrading the factory feet to Tenderfeet under the bottom component is a recommendable upgrade, also. With Tenderfoot isolation, your system will most likely achieve a significant all-around improvement, most noticeably increased focus and clarity, better tonal texturing throughout the frequency spectrum.

Mapleshade has cork/rubber sandwiches and brass cones to offer. Not likely to be nearly as effective as Tenderfeet for this application.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

rollo · « **Reply #2 on:** 30 Dec 2009, 05:36 pm »

First the CDP needs ventilation as well as the other componen.t Second the source especially CDP reqiures some sort of isolation.from floorborn vibrations. Another factor is the conflicting magnetic fields of the components.
Consider placing your Intergrated amp between the speakers and away from the CDP. Yes longer ICs. Then with Herbies products isolate away. I would use the Tenderfeet under the CDP and spike the amp to the carpet or whatever Herbie reccos.
Using the Mapleshade Isoblocks under a plinth of choice and the Tenderfeet under the CDP IMO will further improve isolation. Have fun trying.

charles

max190 · « **Reply #3 on:** 30 Dec 2009, 05:59 pm »

Quote from: Herbie on 30 Dec 2009, 05:04 pm

Hi, max190. It's virtually always better, sonically, to have components separated and isolated from one another. Stacking is sometimes unavoidable, however. If your system sounds excellent, perhaps there's not too much need for concern. Even so, the system will most likely sound even more excellent by isolating the preamp and CD player.

Placing a set of four Tenderfeet between stacked components is the best solution that I know of. Upgrading the factory feet to Tenderfeet under the bottom component is a recommendable upgrade, also. With Tenderfoot isolation, your system will most likely ahieve a significant all-around improvement, most noticeably increased focus and clarity, better tonal texturing throughout the frequency spectrum.

Mapleshade has cork/rubber sandwiches and brass cones to offer. Not likely to be nearly as effective as Tenderfeet for this application.

~Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

Steve, thanks man for the quick response.
So, it sounds like separating my components is the best way to go. My problem is I cannot find that exact table.
Since removing the existing feet is a PITA, would placing (3) Big Tall Tender Feet under each component work?
Also, would I need to purchase the extra-firm under the CDP to support the added weight of the int?

Herbie · « **Reply #4 on:** 30 Dec 2009, 06:19 pm »

Three Tenderfeet would handle the weight, but for best sonic results, I recommend four. No need to remove the factory feet. Four Big Tall TenderSoft under the top component and four Extra-Firm Big Tall Tenderfeet under the bottom component should do very well.

Big Tall Tenderfeet will increase ventillation capacity also, by allowing more air between and under the components (and isolate from floor-borne vibrations).

Steve

max190 · « **Reply #5 on:** 30 Dec 2009, 06:53 pm »

Steve, should I place the (4) tenderfeet to the inside or outside of the factory feet?

gerald porzio · « **Reply #6 on:** 30 Dec 2009, 07:01 pm »

Stacking is fine as long as the extreme heat generating components are on top as your amp is. As far as magnetic fields go, the entire planet is a magnetic field so I wouldn't lose any sleep over this. This is a theoretical concern. T/Ts & crtgs. are another matter but that's not an issue for you.

max190 · « **Reply #7 on:** 30 Dec 2009, 07:13 pm »

Quote from: rollo on 30 Dec 2009, 05:36 pm

First the CDP needs ventilation as well as the other componen.t Second the source especially CDP reqiures some sort of isolation.from floorborn vibrations. Another factor is the conflicting magnetic fields of the components.
Consider placing your Intergrated amp between the speakers and away from the CDP. Yes longer ICs. Then with Herbies products isolate away. I would use the Tenderfeet under the CDP and spike the amp to the carpet or whatever Herbie reccos.
Using the Mapleshade Isoblocks under a plinth of choice and the Tenderfeet under the CDP IMO will further improve isolation. Have fun trying.

charles

Charles, my CDP does not get warm/hot at all. As a matter of fact my CDP top plate is not even ventilated.
My int amp did get pretty warm when I had the top plate on it. Since removing, it runs a lot cooler which IMO will make my pre-amp tubes last a lot longer.
My IC's are only 1 meter in length so moving int to floor is not an option right now.
Not sure why I have to worry about floor-borne vibration since my system is located in the basement.

max190 · « **Reply #8 on:** 30 Dec 2009, 07:21 pm »

Quote from: gerald porzio on 30 Dec 2009, 07:01 pm

Stacking is fine as long as the extreme heat generating components are on top as your amp is. As far as magnetic fields go, the entire planet is a magnetic field so I wouldn't lose any sleep over this. This is a theoretical concern. T/Ts & crtgs. are another matter but that's not an issue for you.

Gerald, I know what you mean about TT's since owning them many years ago. I went to the extreme and isolated mine outside of the room. Problem solved. I got tired of the feedback and having to tip-toe around...

Herbie · « **Reply #9 on:** 30 Dec 2009, 07:24 pm »

Tenderfeet can be placed to the outside or inside of factory feet, whichever seems best. Sometimes they work best very close to the edges of the chassis where the chassis is strongest and most rigid; sometimes, a little away from the edges. It's likely that particular placement will matter little, but sometimes slight adjustments in footer positioning can have profound effect. Experimentation is the only way to determine optimal placement.

(If you have loudspeakers on the floor, you've got floor-borne vibration. With concrete floor in a basement, however, it's probably not particularly problematic. Floor-borne vibrations most harmful to audio are often acute higher-frequency microvibrations that you can't feel or readily detect. These vibrations tend to travel readily through hard and rigid materials, including concrete and metals. These vibrations cause glare and grunge in capacitors, op-amps and other electronic parts, thus the value and importance of component--and loudspeaker-- isolation.)

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

max190 · « **Reply #10 on:** 30 Dec 2009, 07:38 pm »

Quote from: Herbie on 30 Dec 2009, 07:24 pm

Tenderfeet can be placed to the outside or inside of factory feet, whichever seems best. Sometimes they work best very close to the edges of the chassis where the chassis is strongest and most rigid; sometimes, a little away from the edges. It's likely that particular placement will matter little, but sometimes slight adjustments in footer positioning can have profound effect. Experimentation is the only way to determine optimal placement.

~Steve

Steve, now I'm going to really drive you crazy

What if I kick it up a notch and go with the Iso-cup w/Lampblack ball under each?
Will this config give me more

Herbie · « **Reply #11 on:** 30 Dec 2009, 08:02 pm »

I'd stick with four Extra-Firm Big Tall Tenderfeet under the CDP. Under the amp, you wouldn't go wrong with either three or four Iso-Cups w/Lampblack Balls.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

max190 · « **Reply #12 on:** 30 Dec 2009, 08:45 pm »

Quote from: Herbie on 30 Dec 2009, 08:02 pm

I'd stick with four Extra-Firm Big Tall Tenderfeet under the CDP. Under the amp, you wouldn't go wrong with either three or four Iso-Cups w/Lampblack Balls.

~Steve

Thanks Steve for all your help...
I will order and let you know.

max190 · « **Reply #13 on:** 30 Dec 2009, 10:11 pm »

Steve
Placed order...thanks for your help sir

max190 · « **Reply #14 on:** 5 Jan 2010, 04:27 pm »

Quote from: Herbie on 30 Dec 2009, 08:02 pm

I'd stick with four Extra-Firm Big Tall Tenderfeet under the CDP. Under the amp, you wouldn't go wrong with either three or four Iso-Cups w/Lampblack Balls.

~Steve

I received my order yesterday. The 4 Tenderfeet fit perfectly just past the outside of all the stock feet of my CDP and lifting it just enough to clear them.
The 3 Iso-Cups are placed in a triangle -- 2 in the rear corners and 1 front center -- on top of the CDP for my integrated amp. I also tried them just the opposite.
Either way, my amp did not sit exactly right. What I mean by this is the most weight is on the left side because of the 2 power supplies. The amp slightly looks like the chassis is bowing...so I ordered 1 more Iso-Cup today.

I let my system warm up a bit while I grabbed a couple Budlights

The first thing I noticed was the lack of noise I usually hear when opening and especially after closing the tray on the CDP. The Bada opens fast and closes even faster causing a clunk sound.
Keiko Matsui 'Deep Blue' started playing. Immediately I noticed a significant improvement. The piano tone sounded more natural and real. The top end is sweeter and the overall presentation was just more relaxed. Soundstage has more focus and it is wider. Dynamics (macro and micro) are a touch better. Music in general is smoother than previously.
I guess all this was a result of controlling vibrations and thus lowering system noise and possibly distortions.

This is the best ROI a person can do to their system next to acoustically treating their room.

An excellent product indeed...
Steve, thanks for your help man.

Herbie · « **Reply #15 on:** 5 Jan 2010, 04:56 pm »

I'm glad the footers are working well for you. You can use two Iso-Cups on the left side and one midway near the right side. No problem with left/right arrangement instead of front/back.

Even though the amp is heavier on one side, you can usually level the component pretty easily by adjusting the positions of the feet. Use two footers on the heavier side. The footer on the opposite side can be moved away from the edge (toward the middle) to cause more of the weight load to be distributed on that footer. Same thing if four footers are used. Moving footers away from the edge will bring more weight on them and less weight on the footers on the opposite side. It's the same principle that truckers use to adjust the proportion of weight on the axles by sliding the rear axle forward or back under the trailer.

You have superior versatility with placement using four footers. With two footers on a side instead of one, you can move the footers closer to the middle while still keeping them near the outer edges of the component, where the chassis is most strong and rigid. The bottom plate of some amps is not heavy enough gauge to support a footer very far away from the edge without bending or denting.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

spytsi · « **Reply #16 on:** 9 Jul 2011, 01:16 pm »

Quote from: max190 on 5 Jan 2010, 04:27 pm

I received my order yesterday. The 4 Tenderfeet fit perfectly just past the outside of all the stock feet of my CDP and lifting it just enough to clear them.
The 3 Iso-Cups are placed in a triangle -- 2 in the rear corners and 1 front center -- on top of the CDP for my integrated amp. I also tried them just the opposite.
Either way, my amp did not sit exactly right. What I mean by this is the most weight is on the left side because of the 2 power supplies. The amp slightly looks like the chassis is bowing...so I ordered 1 more Iso-Cup today...

Hi max190,
Could you please post a picture or two of your gear sitting on the tenderfeet and iso-cups?
Thx

timind · « **Reply #17 on:** 9 Jul 2011, 02:10 pm »

Quote from: spytsi on 9 Jul 2011, 01:16 pm

Hi max190,
Could you please post a picture or two of your gear sitting on the tenderfeet and iso-cups?
Thx

+1 on this. Your pic of the components is excellent. I'd love to see it now.

max190 · « **Reply #18 on:** 30 Jul 2011, 01:17 pm »

I've been away for awhile...
Here are a couple pictures

jtwrace · « **Reply #19 on:** 30 Jul 2011, 01:19 pm »

Quote from: max190 on 30 Jul 2011, 01:17 pm

I've been away for awhile...

That's an understatement! Where have you been?