Do we really wear out records by playing them?

Wayner · « **on:** 23 Dec 2009, 04:07 pm »

Last night I was in the oldie-moldie mood and while I was listening to some of these 40+ year old records, I asked myself, do they even sound worn out at all? To me, almost all sound like the day I bought them (40 years ago), and I have played the crap out of them.

Sure they sooner or later end up with a scratch here or a tic there, but are we really damaging grooves playing our favorite records, over and over? I haven't really seen any evidence to make this conclusion.

What is your guys take on this topic?

Wayner

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #1 on:** 23 Dec 2009, 04:22 pm »

Friction is always inevitable, law of physics.
In 70s years I wastebin some LP for hearing everyday, the noise was greater than the music ... I had to buy the albums again.
This is one reason for the huge success of CDs in 1983/85.

Regards

BobM · « **Reply #2 on:** 23 Dec 2009, 04:45 pm »

The old albums that I bought myself back some 30+ years ago and played on my crappy and crappier turntables definitely show signs of age and "decrodedness". The records I have bought and played since I had a decent rig, tonearm and cartridge show no signs of wear that I can detect.

Some of this may be attributed to the fact that I clean records now instead of just playing through the dust and debris (and beer and other sticky stuff - don't ask me how it got there).

Levi · « **Reply #3 on:** 23 Dec 2009, 05:27 pm »

I agree with everyone. The answer is yes. It is a friction material that gradually waste away we see as "dust".

Another way I look at it is like starting your car. Wear and tear happens ever time you use your car. The effect is gradual so it is less likely to be detected. However, when you switch to a new car then it is becomes evident.

The only way to prevent the record from wearing out over time is to eliminate friction. Perhaps the cartridge should wear out first before the record? Again, you can tell until you switch to a new cartridge.

Wayner · « **Reply #4 on:** 23 Dec 2009, 05:46 pm »

I realize that the enemy friction is at work. But I have evidence to support the fact that if you keep your records clean, as BobM has suggested, use a good cartridge tracking at a reasonable VTF and have the cartridge aligned properly, damage can be held to a minimum.

One of my examples is my Neil Young, Harvest LP which is older then the hills. It does have some scratches on it, but sounds very, very clean. No grinding on the high frequencies and there just isn't any signs of significant wear.

I have always washed my LPs and they have been played on either an AR-XA, the Empire 598 II or one of my current tables. I think I still have a 100+ LPs that I bought as a kid, most still quite playable.

Yes, there are many a poor LP that fell victim to the Magnavox console with a quarter taped to the top of the tone arm. Those records are still available at your local used record shop, gooves almost a white color.

Wayner

jsaliga · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 Dec 2009, 06:26 pm »

Honestly, my record library stands at about 2,500 plus LPs and I am over 50. I could not come close to wearing out my vinyl collection even if I lived to be 100, assuming that I maintain some semblence of variety in my music listening.

I bought about 100 RCA Red Dog classical music LPs last year as part of a larger bulk lot. These albums were pressed in the 1950s. I have original pressings of nearly every record cut by Nat King Cole and Frank Sinatra on Capitol, again from the 1950s. All of these records sound terrific. They were well cared for and not played to death.

I think that for the most part record wear is a non issue. Yes, it becomes something of a concern in small collections that get lots and lots of play. But since I pay about 50 to 75 cents per record for vintage vinyl in bulk, wear just doesn't concern me in the least. I might throw some records out from a bulk buy that are no good...but what I am left with is quite listenable and will last me the rest of my life.

Hell, I have just recently started getting into 78s and I have some Duke Ellington and Bix Beiderbecke sides that sound pretty darned amazing.

--Jerome

nathanm · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 Dec 2009, 06:30 pm »

Wearing may be preferable to instant failure, as is the case with CDs, DVDs or hard drives!

Well, I suppose you could crack\scratch a record as you could crack\scratch a CD and the CD would still not wear out, but hard drives for sure will fail in an instant under normal use.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #7 on:** 23 Dec 2009, 06:39 pm »

I use LAST Record Preservative...and have for years/decades now

I have no earthly idea if it works in retarding the aging process....but, I go on faith that it does as a prominent Chief Engineer for Allsop and (later) Managing Director for Trackmate once told me that the LAST product range does as it says.

One thing I know is bunk however...was a Stereophile reviewer claimed that his records sounded much better with less ticks and pops after application. But, that is just fantasy...the only thing that LAST Record Preservative can do is preserve further destruction of vinyl, not repeal the damage already done to it.

If LAST says there is record wear I'm inclined to believe it does...and protect against the ravages of more of it

John

*Scotty* · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 Dec 2009, 06:47 pm »

Another vote for LAST, it helps. Unfortunately the higher your systems resolution the more obvious the loss of the higher frequencies will be starting with the highest and working it's way down. This is very obvious when comparing a new copy to the older used one as has already been mentioned. The loss of high frequency hearing acuity with age may render the loss of the highs on the record less obvious on a case by case basis. Speaking from my own experience, the damage will be more evident on better quality recordings. Crap! I hate it when that happens.
Scotty

gerald porzio · « **Reply #9 on:** 23 Dec 2009, 06:50 pm »

Unless you can overcome the immutable laws of friction, every playing of a record causes wear in the grooves.

jsaliga · « **Reply #10 on:** 23 Dec 2009, 06:58 pm »

Quote from: gerald porzio on 23 Dec 2009, 06:50 pm

Unless you can overcome the immutable laws of friction, every playing of a record causes wear in the grooves.

No one is disputing that. But some of us don't think it matters all that much. I would much prefer to risk 50 cents on a vintage LP that might be worn than spend $10 on a CD that I know for a fact has been mastered hot.

--Jerome

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #11 on:** 23 Dec 2009, 07:03 pm »

Quote from: *Scotty* on 23 Dec 2009, 06:47 pm

The loss of high frequency hearing acuity with age may render the loss of the highs on the record less obvious on a case by case basis. Speaking from my own experience, the damage will be more evident on better quality recordings. Crap! I hate it when that happens.
Scotty

Scotty,

Yep

Another reason, I'm sure, why my CD playback has become less aggravating and even pleasant nowadays.

Better digital technology met aging ears and, viola!...we now have high quality sound from fairly mundane Redbook sources nearing age 47 now. It's a recipe for success thanks to mother nature and father time

John

*Scotty* · « **Reply #12 on:** 23 Dec 2009, 07:10 pm »

Wait until you hit 55, it's all good. However having said that 90% of everything is still Crap.
The old curmudgeon,
Scotty

WGH · « **Reply #13 on:** 23 Dec 2009, 07:11 pm »

I have jazz lp's from the early '50's that sound better than some new vinyl.

My brother and I also wore out Henery the Chicken Hawk's Chicken Hunt featuring Foghorn Leghorn which was also made in the early '50's so I guess it depends on how well the record was cared for.

My first record player was a portable all-in-one unit with integral amp and speakers. Pennies taped to the tonearm made it track better.

Wayne

Wayner · « **Reply #14 on:** 23 Dec 2009, 07:18 pm »

I love Foghorn Leghorn! I remember as a kid at Christmas time, old Mr. Behm would come to my home town downtown with a real sleigh drawn by 4 work horses (they are like Clydesdales) and they would hand out apples and Crackerjacks to all the kids that came downtown to greet him.

Then they would open up the school auditorium and show Warner Brothers cartoons on the big screen for 3 hours. It was the best time ever and did we ever laugh! That is what life was like in a small town. We didn't lock our doors ever, the neighbors were all friendly and while we didn't have much money, we never went hungry and there was always a few gifts under the tree.

Wayner

woodsyi · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 Dec 2009, 07:28 pm »

Earth will burn up when the Sun turns Red Giant some time in the future but I am not going to worry about it.

jrtrent · « **Reply #16 on:** 23 Dec 2009, 08:27 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 23 Dec 2009, 04:07 pm

Sure they sooner or later end up with a scratch here or a tic there, but are we really damaging grooves playing our favorite records, over and over? I haven't really seen any evidence to make this conclusion.

What is your guys take on this topic?

I guess I make a distinction between "wear" and "damage." According to one study I've seen referenced, wear from a small elliptical stylus (e.g., with a .2 mil front-back radius) tracking at 1.5 grams, though visible with a microscope, had no audible impact on the sound after 100 plays (a .7 mil conical, with its larger contact area, gave comparable wear with a tracking force of 3 grams). On the other hand, damage from a worn or mistracking stylus (such as when trying to track at too low a pressure) can cause audible degradation in just one play.

I've damaged some records when playing them in a cold house (couldn't afford to heat it, and the rubber suspension stiffened in the cold, leading to mistracking) or when trying a NOS stylus I was curious about (which turned out to have an age-stiffened suspension that also caused mistracking). I now get peace of mind by buying a factory-fresh cartridge or stylus at least annually and keeping my home liveably warm.

gerald porzio · « **Reply #17 on:** 23 Dec 2009, 09:19 pm »

Not everyone purchases & listens to "hot" compressed CDs. Horticulture would replace this hobby if I had to listen to music w/o dynamic range.

jsaliga · « **Reply #18 on:** 23 Dec 2009, 09:39 pm »

Quote from: gerald porzio on 23 Dec 2009, 09:19 pm

Not everyone purchases & listens to "hot" compressed CDs.

Was that directed at me? If so then please use the quote feature when posting.

Whatever. It is not something that I care to debate at length. The subject of vinyl wear reminds me a great deal of the CD versus Vinyl sound quality debates. Threads like this are long on general theory and very short on meaningful substance. I also have a sizable investment in 1/4" 4-track stereo tape, and I don't loose any sleep over concerns that my tapes are deteriorating by the minute.

In my view life is just way too short to spend worrying incessantly about whether or not you are missing a tiny smidgen of the original source recording due to record wear. If it sounds good then it is good.

I'm out.

--Jerome

orthobiz · « **Reply #19 on:** 23 Dec 2009, 09:51 pm »

No. I can't bear to think that I'm wearing my records out.

Paul