I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...

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jhm731

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #120 on: 14 Apr 2010, 01:00 am »
I want to say that optimal settings were made by the owner of the DAC.

We used the PS Audio HDMI cable: http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/detail/perfectwave-i2s?cat=cables-accessorie

PWD has 6 SRC's choices and 5 digital filters, your results maybe reflecting the owner's preference and not the best sounding settings.

Which model cable, the I2S 10 or the I2S 12?

Which playback software did you use- iTunes, Amarra, Pure Music, etc..? 

Danny Richie

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #121 on: 14 Apr 2010, 01:10 am »
Quote
Which model cable, the I2S 10 or the I2S 12?

Oh yeah, sorry. It was the I2S 12.

Quote
Which playback software did you use- iTunes, Amarra, Pure Music, etc..? 


We were using iTunes.

I know some guys that have played with all of those and even were about to be a licensed Amarra dealer, but they had issues with it. The best to date player that I know of is called "Play". We used it after the comparisons and it really smokes iTunes. The problem with it though is that it can only hold a small number of songs and the iTouch will not interface with it. 
« Last Edit: 14 Apr 2010, 02:22 am by Danny »

Danny Richie

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #122 on: 14 Apr 2010, 01:49 am »
Next we listened to the HRT Music Streamer II.

At first there was no comparisons. We just listened to it. Let's just say it was a surprise. This thing may wind up having more discussion about it than most of the DAC's here. So I am going to start a new thread just for this one. So hold your questions about it for the new thread.

Next we decided to try the PS Audio through the computer like everything else. This was a major transformation. It didn't even sound like the same DAC. This doesn't mean however that you will all get better sound out of your PS Audio DAC plugged into a computer. But it certainly shows that you CAN get a lot better sound out of it plugged into a computer. Keep in mind that this was a really well tweaked computer system.

So despite what some of us might have favored in the PS Audio verses Onix comparison we felt like it would be best to move the PS Audio ahead and compare it to the Tranquility as running it from the computer showed it to now be at a new level.

db Audio Labs Tranquility:

Sound stage 3 dimension and width is better, and layering is better (but not by a lot). On Hotel California the guitar sounded more real and had a better sense of feel to it. Drums were slightly tighter.

Gary> Very good. Musical defined. Very little difference in these two DAC's.

PS Audio:

Matches the Tranquility in tonality but is slightly more 2D and has less depth. Image size is now increased in width over running it from the transport. Also the bass is now better than before and it has no more bloat.

Gary> Very good on its own.

We then decided to how the PS Audio as a stand alone DAC compared to the Ayre.

By this time we had really learned the character of all the DAC's. I think I might could have picked each one of them blind.

Comparing these two DAC's the amount of written notes was minimal. In my view the Ayre was 2 dimensional by comparison and not on the same level as the PS Audio. The PS Audio beat it in resolution and imaging. It gave a much better sense of being there.

Gary felt that the Ayre had a more robust bottom end but fuzzy sounding. The PS Audio was just flat out "good".

Next we took the clear favorites, the Tranquility and the PS Audio, and plugged each one into the Dodd Audio balanced power supply and Uber Buss for a listen to each of them. We used better power cables too.

For me it was a relief and a big hello to my old friend "no noise floor". Both DAC's were now on a new plane of existence. Everything was better across the board on both DAC's, but it really sounded like it helped the PS Audio the most. Now both DAC's were very close indeed. This could really go either way not knowing which was which. We through a lot at these things over a good range of music. We whipped out a drum track with a long cymbal intro, and various other songs. These two DAC's were now both unbelievable. If you are now about to purchase one of them then this was where you then ask which is the lower priced DAC. At about half the price that one goes to the Tranquility.

HAL

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #123 on: 14 Apr 2010, 02:16 am »
Sounds like this was a very cool DAC shootout with lots of good insite into the musical qualities of all the units! :) 

Jon L

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #124 on: 14 Apr 2010, 02:17 am »
If you are now about to purchase one of them then this was where you then ask which is the lower priced DAC. At about half the price that one goes to the Tranquility.

Well, another big question for many of us might be how true 24 bit/96 kHz (or higher) tracks sound through the DAC's!  For example, 24/192 HRX DVD via I2S or 24/96 files from the computer.

I realize dbaudiolabs keeps saying their DAC "plays" hi res files and does their best to avoid using phrases like "truncate 24 bit to 16 bit" and "downsample 96 kHz to 44.1 kHz," but that's certainly what their Tranquility DAC does.

I personally do own a substantial library of true hi res music, which sounds amazing, so my next DAC purchase MUST be able to play these files without truncation/downsampling.  These comparisons have got my curiosity up about dbaudiolabs, but the Tranquility is simply out of the question for that reason.  I believe I read somewhere they are working on DAC that will play hi res files without truncation/downsampling, so perhaps that's what I should look at.

But if they are still going to use 16-bit non-oversampling DAC chip like used in Tranquility, I am not sure how they will achieve true 24/192 capability :scratch:

dBe

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #125 on: 14 Apr 2010, 02:26 am »
Next we listened to the HRT Music Streamer II.

At first there was no comparisons. We just listened to it. Let's just say it was a surprise. This thing may wind up having more discussion about it than most of the DAC's here. So I am going to start a new thread just for this one. So hold your questions about it for the new thread.

Next we decided to try the PS Audio through the computer like everything else. This was a major transformation. It didn't even sound like the same DAC. This doesn't mean however that you will all get better sound out of your PS Audio DAC plugged into a computer. But it certainly shows that you CAN get a lot better sound out of it plugged into a computer. Keep in mind that this was a really well tweaked computer system.

So despite what some of us might have favored in the PS Audio verses Onix comparison we felt like it would be best to move the PS Audio ahead and compare it to the Tranquility as running it from the computer showed it to now be at a new level.

db Audio Labs Tranquility:

Sound stage 3 dimension and width is better, and layering is better (but not by a lot). On Hotel California the guitar sounded more real and had a better sense of feel to it. Drums were slightly tighter.

Gary> Very good. Musical defined. Very little difference in these two DAC's.

PS Audio:

Matches the Tranquility in tonality but is slightly more 2D and has less depth. Image size is now increased in width over running it from the transport. Also the bass is now better than before and it has no more bloat.

Gary> Very good on its own.

We then decided to how the PS Audio as a stand alone DAC compared to the Ayre.

By this time we had really learned the character of all the DAC's. I think I might could have picked each one of them blind.

Comparing these two DAC's the amount of written notes was minimal. In my view the Ayre was 2 dimensional by comparison and not on the same level as the PS Audio. The PS Audio beat it in resolution and imaging. It gave a much better sense of being there.

Gary felt that the Ayre had a more robust bottom end but fuzzy sounding. The PS Audio was just flat out "good".

Next we took the clear favorites, the Tranquility and the PS Audio, and plugged each one into the Dodd Audio balanced power supply and Uber Buss for a listen to each of them. We used better power cables too.

For me it was a relief and a big hello to my old friend "no noise floor". Both DAC's were now on a new plane of existence. Everything was better across the board on both DAC's, but it really sounded like it helped the PS Audio the most. Now both DAC's were very close indeed. This could really go either way not knowing which was which. We through a lot at these things over a good range of music. We whipped out a drum track with a long cymbal intro, and various other songs. These two DAC's were now both unbelievable. If you are now about to purchase one of them then this was where you then ask which is the lower priced DAC. At about half the price that one goes to the Tranquility.
Thanks to all that have posted (except for lowtech - those weren't really posts, more of thorns) about the DACs.  It will be interesting to compare some of the local DACs here in a few weeks.  We won't have a large selection, but it will be more fodder for the gristmill.

Dave

Danny Richie

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #126 on: 14 Apr 2010, 02:30 am »
Quote
I realize dbaudiolabs keeps saying their DAC "plays" hi res files and does their best to avoid using phrases like "truncate 24 bit to 16 bit" and "downsample 96 kHz to 44.1 kHz," but that's certainly what their Tranquility DAC does 


I have a 32 bit Wolfson here as well. It was an evaluation board (no longer available). It was as good or better than anything I had compared it to prior to going to the better USB cable from db Audio Labs on my Tranquility (plus cap change).

I sent them both 24 bit files and the Tranquility still sounded better, and it really lost nothing in comparison verses 16 bit 44.1 files.

I understand that the higher bit rate files will be better from a bench racing stand point, but it is really just a small piece of the overall puzzle.

Jon L

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #127 on: 14 Apr 2010, 03:13 am »


Looking at the photo, it looks like PS Audio combo was sitting right on the carpet, with Ayre on top of the PS audio while Tranquility was sitting on top of some kind of platform/stand.  Were the DAC's placed on identical stands with the same footers for the comparisons? 

As far as hi res, I do agree with you that not all "hi res" DAC's will sound better than all NOS DAC's playing hi res files, truncation and all.  However, since the PS Audio DAC and Tranquility were deemed pretty equal by the time power conditioning was thrown in, playing 16/44.1 files, it makes one wonder what would happen if true 24/96-192 files were played through the 2 DAC's. 

I realize all this may seem like nitpicking, but I don't own any PS Audio gear or even their stocks  :D  But knowing what's inside the PS Audio and Tranquility (well, what precious little dbaudiolab has revealed so far), having gone through a lot of USB audio and hi resolution file playback, and having listened to the PS Audio combo in past, it just seems something was "off" somewhere..

dBe

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #128 on: 14 Apr 2010, 03:29 am »
Looking at the photo, it looks like PS Audio combo was sitting right on the carpet, with Ayre on top of the PS audio while Tranquility was sitting on top of some kind of platform/stand.  Were the DAC's placed on identical stands with the same footers for the comparisons? 

As far as hi res, I do agree with you that not all "hi res" DAC's will sound better than all NOS DAC's playing hi res files, truncation and all.  However, since the PS Audio DAC and Tranquility were deemed pretty equal by the time power conditioning was thrown in, playing 16/44.1 files, it makes one wonder what would happen if true 24/96-192 files were played through the 2 DAC's. 

I realize all this may seem like nitpicking, but I don't own any PS Audio gear or even their stocks  :D  But knowing what's inside the PS Audio and Tranquility (well, what precious little dbaudiolab has revealed so far), having gone through a lot of USB audio and hi resolution file playback, and having listened to the PS Audio combo in past, it just seems something was "off" somewhere..
I'm going to make some "general comments" about PS Audio gear.  I have listened to, modified, done autopsies and owed their gear for a while.  The only pieces of theirs that I kept were Power Plants, because I found their reproduction equipment to be over engineered and underwhelming in performance.  When I heard the combo at RMAF once again it did what most of their gear does: it got the notes right, but not the spaces between the notes where spatial info abides.  There was a sense of restraint in soundstage that I have heard in almost all of their components.  Don't get me wrong.  It sounded good, just not excellent.  I expected more.  I think that their choice of passives in their gear is responsible for this... along with the quantity.  Simplicity is the source of excellence in reproduction in my not so humble opinion and experience.  Every unneccessary part is a life and soul sucker.

Dave

Danny Richie

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #129 on: 14 Apr 2010, 03:35 am »
Quote
Looking at the photo, it looks like PS Audio combo was sitting right on the carpet, with Ayre on top of the PS audio while Tranquility was sitting on top of some kind of platform/stand.  Were the DAC's placed on identical stands with the same footers for the comparisons? 


It was sitting on the carpet, and it may have been slightly better had they all been on some really great stands, but it wouldn't have closed the gaps that we heard. Differences were fairly significant most of the time.

Quote
However, since the PS Audio DAC and Tranquility were deemed pretty equal by the time power conditioning was thrown in, playing 16/44.1 files, it makes one wonder what would happen if true 24/96-192 files were played through the 2 DAC's. 


That's a good question, and this comparison was not really to deem any real champion, but to provide real feedback from more than one set of ears and using a really good system.

I think most of the guys here are really not looking for the cost no object end all be all, but a great value is pretty high on the list.

I thought the Music Streamer was a great value and so was the Onix, but for a little more, so is the Tranquility. However, for some, the Tranquility might be out of their price range. So a comparison like this might really provide some good feedback. It was really fun to do too, and audio really needs that (fun get togethers).

Jon L

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #130 on: 14 Apr 2010, 03:48 am »
I'm going to make some "general comments" about PS Audio gear.  I have listened to, modified, done autopsies and owed their gear for a while.  The only pieces of theirs that I kept were Power Plants, because I found their reproduction equipment to be over engineered and underwhelming in performance.  When I heard the combo at RMAF once again it did what most of their gear does: it got the notes right, but not the spaces between the notes where spatial info abides.  There was a sense of restraint in soundstage that I have heard in almost all of their components.  Don't get me wrong.  It sounded good, just not excellent.  I expected more.  I think that their choice of passives in their gear is responsible for this... along with the quantity.  Simplicity is the source of excellence in reproduction in my not so humble opinion and experience.  Every unneccessary part is a life and soul sucker.

Dave

I agree with you.  You are talking to a 3 watt SET die-hard, and I've never been impressed enough with any PS Audio gear to actually buy one, the latest being their PS Digital Link III DAC which I home-auditioned. 

However, I think PS Audio has really stepped out of their usual game with the PerfectWave transport/DAC, at least conceptually.  The prospect of their network bridge (when it finally ships  :duh:) and the new Digital Lens are some real advances in the whole digital/PC Audio world.  Actually, I think they are actually trying too many things and have ended up with an overly complicated product, but I like their spirit!

I have liked the PS Audio combo enough to consider purchasing the PerfectWave combo, but in the end, I really only want ONE highly-optimized digital input for my Audio PC, be it USB, firewire, or some kind of soundcard/I2S. 

As far as the carpet thing.  IME, transports and DAC's are some of the most sensitive to footers and stands.  I regularly find larger differences by changing footer/stand than going from one DAC to another.  JIMHO..

JerryM

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #131 on: 14 Apr 2010, 04:20 am »
Danny,

Thank you for a great, well worded, and highly anticipated post.  :thumb:   Your time and effort in putting this all together, having the shootout, posting the findings, and following up, is fantastic and very much appreciated.  :beer:

What would be very cool is to see a Second Annual Great DAC Shootout.  :eyebrows:

Thanks again,
Jerry

jhm731

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #132 on: 14 Apr 2010, 06:10 am »
As far as the carpet thing.  IME, transports and DAC's are some of the most sensitive to footers and stands.  I regularly find larger differences by changing footer/stand than going from one DAC to another.  JIMHO..

Once again I agree with Jon.

How can you put one DAC/Transport on the carpet and the perferred DAC on a stand and do a fair comparison?

We still don't know which of the PWD's 6 SRC's choices and 5 digital filters were engaged.

We still don't know what playback software was used- iTunes, Amarra, Pure Music, etc...

From what I've read about the PWD it was optimized to drive amps directly via the balanced outputs, yet you connected it to a single ended preamp/amp combo.

And this statement that:

"Even comparing it to Mac laptops, etc, it still comes out on top. There are several reasons for its rise to the top but I don't see need to go into those now."

I'm at a loss to understand how a mini running off a noisy SMPS can sound better than a laptop with the same ram and SSD running off battery.

Finally, how can you evaluate anything with a speaker with this measured  response:





« Last Edit: 14 Apr 2010, 08:23 am by jhm731 »

Danny Richie

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #133 on: 14 Apr 2010, 01:01 pm »
Quote
How can you put one DAC/Transport on the carpet and the perferred DAC on a stand and do a fair comparison?

Would it could it make a difference? Maybe so, and likely very little. Keep in mind that the PS Audio combo weighed 50 to 60 pounds as the whole chassis is mass damped. So I just don't see that one thing bringing it down too much.

Quote
We still don't know which of the PWD's 6 SRC's choices and 5 digital filters were engaged.

I'll check on that and see what I can find out.

Quote
We still don't know what playback software was used- iTunes, Amarra, Pure Music, etc...

I did answer that. See above post.

Quote
From what I've read about the PWD it was optimized to drive amps directly via the balanced outputs, yet you connected it to a single ended preamp/amp combo.

It was connected to a passive buffer as were all the others.

Quote
I'm at a loss to understand how a mini running off a noisy SMPS can sound better than a laptop with the same ram and SSD running off battery.

Yep, been there done that and so have a whole group of others that I know. The Mac Mini sounds better.

Quote
Finally, how can you evaluate anything with a speaker with this measured  response:

The pair I used was a little smoother up top that this pair and within +/-2.5db end to end, and pretty flat below 3kHz. Even this one pictured is +/-1.7db from 3kHz on down. That is a lot smoother and more accurate than most speakers out there.

You were planing to come to LSAF in a few weeks and you can come hear that pair for yourself. If they are not one of the best sounding, most revealing, and most dynamic speakers that you have ever heard in your life, then dinner is on me. 

woofersus

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #134 on: 14 Apr 2010, 01:39 pm »
Color me skeptical about the Mac Mini vs. other computing devices thing, as well as the usb cable, but I enough respect for Danny's ability to set that aside here.  It's not relevant to the comparison data anyway.  The equipment he used is what it was.  As a speculative thought as to reasons, does the mini perhaps have discreet graphics?  That would keep the graphics core off the pci bus where the sound card resides.  Even laptops with discreet graphics will frequently use a chipset that actually has integrated graphics on the northbridge even if they're not in use.

When I heard the PS Audio room at RMAF last year it was really dry.  As mentioned above, it did a lot right, and had all the notes in place, but there wasn't enough spacial information.  Perhaps it was over-damped in the name of reducing the noise floor or something, but it sort of felt like trying to have a conversation in an anechoic chamber.  Just a little unnatural and uncomfortable.  Of course I don't know which component's fault it was, but it sounds like Dave is describing something similar.

Just out of curiosity, since I have a special interest in the Onix DAC-25, was the upsampling function used at all, and at what setting?  Also, did you try any of these out using their digital (non-usb) inputs fed by some other transport?  If so, the S/PDIF input on the Onix should have an advantage due to a Cirrus Logic receiver/buffer.  I'm a little curious as to whether that made a difference you could hear - even as compared to the optical input on the same dac in the absence of another dac without that feature.  In my own testing it sounded better that way (fed by the S/PDIF outputs on the Onix CD-10 or my RME Fireface 800) than when fed directly by the pc via usb although admittedly my pc, while acoustically very quiet, may have held it back more than your Mac Mini.

mcullinan

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #135 on: 14 Apr 2010, 01:54 pm »
Great review. So the Tranquility was everyones favorite? Its a nonoversampling DAC?
Thanks.
M

saisunil

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #136 on: 14 Apr 2010, 02:27 pm »
Thank you Danny and all for your efforts and reporting back ...
Happy Spring :)

jhm731

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #137 on: 14 Apr 2010, 04:35 pm »

You were planing to come to LSAF in a few weeks and you can come hear that pair for yourself. If they are not one of the best sounding, most revealing, and most dynamic speakers that you have ever heard in your life, then dinner is on me.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions and the offer to hear
your speakers, but I have no plans of traveling to Texas.

tasar

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #138 on: 14 Apr 2010, 04:36 pm »
I'm going to make some "general comments" about PS Audio gear.  I have listened to, modified, done autopsies and owed their gear for a while.  The only pieces of theirs that I kept were Power Plants, because I found their reproduction equipment to be over engineered and underwhelming in performance.  When I heard the combo at RMAF once again it did what most of their gear does: it got the notes right, but not the spaces between the notes where spatial info abides.  There was a sense of restraint in soundstage that I have heard in almost all of their components.  Don't get me wrong.  It sounded good, just not excellent.  I expected more.  I think that their choice of passives in their gear is responsible for this... along with the quantity.  Simplicity is the source of excellence in reproduction in my not so humble opinion and experience.  Every unneccessary part is a life and soul sucker.

Dave

Dave, I concur with the above. PS hyped their ram buffered re-clocked data stream to I2S output. The I2S DAC was to complete the synergy from the lens loaded transport or lens loaded bridge (yet to be rolled out) which, when attached, would receive a wireless or ethernet wired burned file feed. I beta tested the PWD alone, so had no I2S and found the SPDIF inputs to be "unremarkable", thin and bass devoid. The PWD(PS DAC) has a digital volume control, one the factory purports to excel when the unit is used as a pre-amp with volume settings ideally above 50%. I found, nothing could be further from the truth, that this unit definitely benefitted from a good  "analog" inducing pre-amp. The SRC and filter applications were "non eventful" between settings. So everyone knows, the USB was never factory optimized, no asynchronous or NOS here. USB is not embraced with corporate mindsets at PS. I sent it off to Cullen Circuits whose findings included loose fitting components, flawed sampling circuitry, and compromised output stages. I'm not suggesting, only reporting, but their findings supported my disposition. Basically, PS is betting the bank with their I2S implementation, so it was quite the SURPRISE to hear Danny's report implying a clean powered, USB fed PS DAC(PWD) trumps it's I2S inputs ! Many PWD owners made a bet on a promise, that the undeveloped PS bridge would get them "there". I see no reason its performance would be any better than with the partnered transport, though the bridge is reported to accept higher rez audio ! Since the Uber and Dodd power supply were reported to get the PS DAC USB into Tranquiity territory, it speaks volumes for those products and that front ends are game changers. I look forward to the PS owner's report when the bridge rolls out in June. With a good power supply, will he hear any nuances between USB and I2S ? Yes, that's the $64k question. Further, how will that compare to the NECO approach ?


Danny Richie

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #139 on: 14 Apr 2010, 05:11 pm »
Quote
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions and the offer to hear
your speakers, but I have no plans of traveling to Texas.

Because of your pic I thought you were Jim from Diffraction-be-gone.