[roscoeiii]

Here's the thread:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/164366-i2s-standards-ps-audio.html

[HAL]

Thanks!

[dBe]

roscoeiii,
Do you have a link to the info at PS Audio on the HDMI I2S Bus interface?

Rich, here you go:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/164366-i2s-standards-ps-audio.html

Dave

[HAL]

Dave,
Thanks! 

[dBe]

Dave,
Thanks! 

Hey, better late than never!

Dave

[Jon L]

For those without DIYAudio account:

[Rapt]

Hello all.  I was a participant in the 10 April 2010 USB DAC Shoot-out.  Here are my thoughts on each DAC with a ranking of each at the end of the review.  The DACs were, in alphabetical order, the Ayre, dB Labs, Onix, PS Audio, and an inexpensive USB DAC whose name I cannot recall.  Please note that I was not completely familiar with the cost of the various DACs until after the Shoot-Out was completed.

As background, my personal tastes lean to Vinyl (and Reel to Reel player at work!), and I use a Lite-on DAC 60 with GR-Research Step 1 mods, GR-Research O-3 speakers (and occasionally  my Soliloquy 8.1 speakers), and a PC with Xonar HDAV sound card as the SPDIF digital stream output, Dodd Audio pre-amp and either my Belles Hot Rod amp or Chiro C-200 amp.

Danny can provide better specifics, but with the exception of the PS Audio, all DACs were tested using a Mac Mini outputting a digital stream and connected to each DAC with a USB cable.  The same power cord and cable was used throughout.  However, the PS Audio was tested as a DAC/Transport combo connected with an HDMI cable.  The PS Audio DAC was also tested separately using its USB digital interface to provide a more fair comparison to the other DACs.

Ayre:  The Ayre had a good top to bottom balance with "the best of the bunch" harmonic undertones.  It was very musical with a tendency toward a "laid-back" sound.  It had a rather nice balance to its sound reproduction.  The female vocal, as provided by Diane Warren was, to me, a bit too forward in the aural presentation.  Some upper midrange sounds had a small touch of forwardness and were very slightly "digital" sounding.  Instruments were presented a bit more crowded together than the dB Labs.   It had a slightly veiled sound which would not have been noticeable if the other DACs had not been present as a comparison.  Overall, I found it to be an enjoyable and easy to listen to DAC.

dB Labs:  The dB Labs DAC had very crystalline highs, perhaps the best that I have ever heard from 16 bit music.  The sustain of the instruments was very good.  The sound was clean with a nice wide soundstage.  The DAC had a very open sound that was slightly "laid back" and the bass region was nice and taut.  Overall the sound had a nice analog character.  In the most distinctive difference of all the DACs, using the music of artist Jack Johnson, the DAC excelled in reproduction of the natural-ness of the male vocal.  The soundstage depth was slightly shallow compared to the PS Audio DAC/Transport solution using its HDMI connector to connect both the Transport and the DAC.

Onix:  The Onix was a better than average DAC, with a slightly strained sound and presented itself as a little fuzzy or veiled sounding.  It was smooth except in the upper mid-range which I found to be a bit too aggressive for my tastes.  The soundstage was flatter than the Ayre, dB Labs, and PS Audio and I thought that it was a very good value as long as you had speakers that provided a more "dark" presentation.  It was definitely worth looking into as a very good value for its price point.  Personally, it is not a DAC that I would purchase, but given the right system it might be fine for others.

PS Audio:  The PS Audio was tested two ways, one as the company preferred Transport/DAC combination and one using the USB input of the DAC driven by the Mac Mini setup.  Firstly, the DAC/Transport combination with HDMI connection had the deepest soundstage of the DACs.  It also had a relatively narrow soundstage in that setup which was localized between the two speakers and, oddly enough, did not make the speakers "disappear" in the room.  The bass was slightly tubby and bloated, but was not un-enjoyable and I am certain the younger audiophiles used to the bottom heavy songs of today would enjoy its low end presentation more than the other DACs presentation of similar material.  The second test of the PS Audio, using only the DAC with the USB instead of HDMI input, presented itself quite differently.  The soundstage was less deep, but it became significantly wider with instruments being spaced further apart and less "stuck together."  The bass became a bit more loose than it had been and female vocals became less forward sounding.  The mid to lower mid-range sounded very good indeed.  I preferred the sound of the Ayre and dB Labs highs as compared to the PS Audio in either of its configurations.  I definitely preferred the sound of the DAC by itself and not conjoined with the PS Audio transport.  I would definitely be interested in hearing the PS Audio DAC being driven by an ASUS Xonar HDAV 1.3 Slim PC Audio card (I do not use Mac computers - "I'm a PC").  The Xonar Slim has HDMI output capabilities and  I wonder if there is any difference between the PC sound card and the PS Audio Transport.

USB DAC:  I personally did not care for this DAC.  I found it to be too aggressive and "digital" sounding for my tastes.  If used with computer system speakers and at a rather low volume for recreational listening perhaps it could be useful, but I found the sound too irritating for my ears.  I believe that I am the only one who had this opinion of the DAC, so take that as a lone voice in the wilderness.

Conclusions:  As ranked in an order of personal preference, I would rank the DACs in the following order:  dB Labs, Ayre, PS Audio, Onix, and the USB DAC.  I felt that the dB Labs and Ayre were rather close in sound with the edge going to the dB Labs and both were better than the PS Audio by a small but noticeable amount and  that the Onix was above the average in its price class (though not in the same class as the first three units) with the USB DAC trailing a good ways behind the others.  I found the PS Audio setup to sound better in a Mac Mini computer-fed USB interface configuration rather than the DAC/Transport combination recommended by PS Audio.

  Did you get a chance to try hi-resolution 24/96 files on the ayre??

[Danny Richie]

Okay, before getting into the details of the comparisons, I really need to go over all the updates and upgrades to the computer, other system gear, and listening methods.

First of all, most of the experts in the industry have already figured out that the Mac Mini has been providing the best over all performance from A/B listening test as a source. Even comparing it to Mac laptops, etc, it still comes out on top. There are several reasons for its rise to the top but I don't see need to go into those now.
 
Upgrades made to the Mac Mini were also made that brought it up several levels in performance and I must be up front about what was done. I wouldn't want anyone to think that they will get the same results that we got if using a lessor quality computer.

The Mac Mini that we used had a solid state hard drive. That takes it up a level. It also had all of the music stored on an external hard drive. That takes it up another level. Then it has all other operating systems running in the back ground completely shut down. This makes a surprising difference and again takes things up another level. This particular Mac also has been upgraded to 4 megs of ram. Also, an adapter is used to convert the input plug on the power supply to an IEC so an upgraded power cable can be used. We were using an Electra Cable B-7 PC that was further enhanced by plugging it to an Uber Buss. When all of this is added up the result is really extensive.

Next is the USB cable. I have tried a lot of them including some in the $450 to $600 range. The db Audio Labs cable is the best I have used and very neutral sounding. It was used with all DAC's.

All DAC's were well burned in with the least amount on time being on the db Audio Labs Tranquility DAC. It was a stock unit with the standard Mundorf caps.

Prior to the comparison, extensive listening was done with various power cables and conditioning. I run my personal DAC with an Electra Cable power cable into my Dodd Audio balanced power supply that is plugged into an Uber Buss. This really drops the noise floor and improves the sound from top to bottom. Clearly all the DAC's came up a lot in performance when plugged in with this top level conditioning system. But we decided that the best and most fair thing to do for the comparisons was to plug each DAC into the wall using a low cost and commonly available power cable. We had two identical PS Audio power cables (two were needed for the PS Audio DAC and transport) that we used. They were the AC-10 model.

See here: http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/detail/perfectwave-ac-10-power-cable?cat=cables-accessories

The rest of the system was an off the grid Dodd Audio buffer driving the big Dodd Audio, mono block, tube amps. Speakers were Super-V's totally decked out. The listening room was also fairly well optimized and treated as needed. The system easily revealed in detail each subtle difference between any change of any kind.



In listening tests we used various tracks and often swapped places taking turns from various listening positions so that everyone got a good feel for imaging and sound stage cues. 

We later also made some comparisons using the Dodd Audio balanced power supply and Uber Buss to see what effects that had on various DAC's and how much benefit it gave to each one.

We covered the spectrum in price ranges with the following DAC's:

HRT Music Streamer II at $149: http://www.musicdirect.com/product/87045

The Onix DAC provided by Skiing Ninja at $629: http://www.skiingninja.com/DAC25-Upsampling-DAC-p/onixdac25.htm

db Audio Labs at $1,495 ($1,295 for AC members right now):  http://www.dbaudiolabs.com/

The Ayre DAC at $2,500: http://www.ayre.com/products_detail.cfm?productid=18

And the PS Audio transport and DAC at $6,000 for the pair: http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/list/audio/

[Danny Richie]

Also, before I get into the comparisons I want to mention that we also had a Neko DAC here as well, but we lost it.

Neko DAC: http://www.nekoaudio.com/

Originally one was sent with only balanced outputs and some very inexpensive XLR to RCA cables that really held it back. It was including in some initial listening comparisons made earlier this year but the cables really weren't helping it and I really felt it was better than it was sounding through those cables.

Cables: http://www.nekoaudio.com/#accessories

So it was returned and another was sent with RCA outputs. Being able to use my higher quality RCA cables from Electra Cable brought it up quite a bit.

Unfortunately the company owner had us send it to a reviewer a week before this get together so it was not included in the mix. The company owner may have reached the limit of his patience as it took us a while to get this comparison going as it was not easy to finally score one of the Ayre DAC's.

Having spent some time with the Neko DAC listening to it just before sending it off, I would have to say that it would have faired really well. I would have put it ahead of the Ayre DAC and the PS Audio transport/DAC combo for sure. I did compare it to my modded (cap change) Tranquility DAC and was very impressed with it. I thought it gave a few things up to the Tranquility but not by leaps and bounds. It held its own quite well, and I would easily still recommend it for audition to anyone interested in it.

[jhm731]

Unfortunately, sound cards and DVD players with HDMI output will NOT be able to drive the PS Audio DAC HDMI input, since PS audio's HDMI implementation has nothing to do with the HDMI standard, just using the HDMI connectors with different pinouts for I2S use (a bad decision IMHO). 

It suprises me that you found the PS transport/I2S not as good as USB input and wonder if the myriad of upsampling and other settings were optimized the the PWT/PWD combo.  It would have been interesting to try a different transport, say a Lynx card with AES digital output, to the PWD.  Thanks for your impressions..

I agree with Jon. It would be nice to know what settings were use on the PWD and what HDMI cable was used
to connect the PWT/PWD.

[Bear]

Danny,   What generation/processor speed is your mac mini, also what OS software and playback software are you using?  Im interested in setting up something like this as well.   I do find it curious as to how an external hard drive would benefit with a solid state drive installed in the mini....was the external hard drive also solid state?

interested in the results of the shootout!

hopefully this will not "derail" this thread.
Thanks,
Shane.

[lowtech]

First of all, most of the experts in the industry have already figured out that the Mac Mini has...

Thanks for saving me the trouble of reading any further.  (I guess we rely on different "experts").

[Danny Richie]

I agree with Jon. It would be nice to know what settings were use on the PWD and what HDMI cable was used to connect the PWT/PWD.

I want to say that optimal settings were made by the owner of the DAC.

We used the PS Audio HDMI cable: http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/detail/perfectwave-i2s?cat=cables-accessories

What generation/processor speed is your mac mini, also what OS software and playback software are you using?

It was a 2gHz processor and we were using the latest Snow Leopard OS.

I do find it curious as to how an external hard drive would benefit with a solid state drive installed in the mini....was the external hard drive also solid state?

Going to an external drive gets it away from the noise of the processor. It clearly made a difference.

I am still typing up results.

[Danny Richie]

Thanks for saving me the trouble of reading any further.  (I guess we rely on different "experts").

Hello Lowtech.

Another fine contribution I see.

Feel free to A/B them for yourself and let us know what you find.

[lowtech]

Hello Lowtech.

Another fine contribution I see.

Feel free to A/B them for yourself and let us know what you find.

Been there, done that... 4 or so years ago.

[Bear]

Going to an external drive gets it away from the noise of the processor. It clearly made a difference.

Ah, I see....Is your external drive solid state as well?

[Danny Richie]

Ah, I see....Is your external drive solid state as well?

Nope, the external drive is not solid state. However, comparing the internal solid state drive to the external drive, the performance edge clearly goes to the external drive.

[Bear]

Nope, the external drive is not solid state. However, comparing the internal solid state drive to the external drive, the performance edge clearly goes to the external drive.

cool, thanks.

Did not mean to take the thread off topic.  lowtech...what gives?  Did Danny steal your girlfriend or run over your dog? As an unbiased observer you seem to posess  a bit of contempt towards him or his circle.

[Danny Richie]

Listening test involved playing a given track or segment of it then switching DAC's and repeating the same thing. We often went back and forth several times using the same track until the differences became real apparent. Often the differences were very apparent real quick. Sometimes we wrote down simple observations and sometimes we wrote down comparative differences.

Observations made were in close agreement by everyone, but preferences like everything, did vary a little as not everyone's taste are the same. Chris for instance prefers a softer more laid back sound. Anything harsh, bright, or in your face is out for Chris. I favor a non-harsh, non-fatiguing sound (think analog) too, but can't give up top end resolution for it. I also am really bugged by any high noise floors. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes.

I also have Gary Dodd's listening impressions and will be including them here as well. I will make note of the comments that were Gary's.

First comparison was Ayre QB-9 verses the bd Audio Labs Tranquility. Notes taken may not be in reference to the DAC specifically but in comparison to the other DAC.

db Audio Labs:

More sound stage layering. Smoothest vocals. Piano sounded very real. Very analog sounding. In Hotel California (Hell Freezes over album) the guitar had more coherency and body. The coherency of the guitar in Jack Johnson's "Better Together" was much better and it made the Ayre sound fragmented.

Gary> Very clean, crisp, open airy. great resolution. Excellent staging and depth. Very easy to tell where things are in the stage. Nice space between everything. Female vocal - very smooth and natural. Very real presentation. Very solid bottom end without mudding up the mids. Much tighter bottom end and better control. MORE MUSICAL.

Ayre QB-9:

Really good vocals using Vienna Teng "Say Uncle". The intro was close, but the piano on the Ayre lost a little air. In the beginning of "The Panther" by Jennifer Warnes, the highs in the right channel were more attached to the speaker. Not quite the layering of the Tranquility. Guitar lacked coherency as if part of the body was missing or it was separated from the sound of the strings themselves.

Gary> Slightly forward. Resolution good. Clean. Less body in the vocal but good. Mids recessed a little. On Hotel California the bottom end was strong but muddied up the mid-range a bit.

Next up was the PS Audio combo verses the Onix DAC. 

PS Audio:

Tonality sounds good but still sounds digital. Nice vocal. Great resolution at the expense of smoothness. No image width. Slightly one note bass, not as tight, or a little bloat. Must have patience with function controls and CD loading (side note).

Gary> Huge deep sound stage, but all sound is between the speakers. Very clean and detailed. Very good mid-range. Bass is a little bloated sounding. Hard to get used to.

Onix:

Slightly more analog sounding, More body in the guitar of Jack Johnson. Smoother sounding. Sound stage on Hotel California was wide and separated from the speakers. Not as focused or as deep but bigger.

Gary> Nice Male vocals. Wider sound stage than PS Audio. More electronic sounding. Easy to listen to. A little laid back and soft.

My personal preference between the two was for the Onix.

Okay, there's two rounds. More to come.....

[Danny Richie]

lowtech...what gives?  Did Danny steal your girlfriend or run over your dog? As an unbiased observer you seem to hold a bit of contempt towards him or his circle.

He thinks my V-1 and Super-V are a knock off of the Orion.