[Jonathan]

I've completely enjoyed my almost two year old De Capos, but last night was very interesting:

I accompanied a friend to a local home theater store to listen to a pair of Magnepan speakers.  We ended up listening to the MG12 (around $1100/pr) and the 1.6 QR (around $1700).  I have to say, I was really captivated by the sound of both pairs. There was a resolution of detail and a sense of space between instruments that I don't currently hear from my De Capos. I found myself saying trite, cliched things like, "Wow, I'm hearing things on this recording I never noticed before."  But it's true. The presentation was so different from the sound I'm used to from the De Capos that it took me by surprise.  Even though the smaller Maggies are less than half the price and don't go as far down as the De Capos, I still find myself intrigued, if not downright tempted by this sound I heard.

 Bottom line is that I'm wondering if any of you guys have owned the Maggies or have heard them lately--if so, what are your feelings about them?

Thanks,

Jon

[mcrespo71]

I used to own MG12's before.  I can't fault you for liking the Maggie house sound, as it is soooo different than normal cone speakers.  I do think the MM De Capo I is a better speaker overall, so be careful about changing to another speaker.  IMO, all you will get is different sound- NOT BETTER.  Plus, you better have a good 100 watts to run Magnepan's.  If you get a Maggie, get one that is clearly a step up from the MM De Capo I and that is the 3.6R.  The 1.6 is a side step.

[brucegel]

Mcrespo hit the nail on  when he said different not better.It's a compliment to you that you are swept away by the differences in planar speakers vs. dynamics like the decapo i.The best of both worlds is to own both types since everything but the largest maggies and soundlabs will "blur out" (my words to describe smearing) with large orchestral works.Not to mention the large wattage amps and high quality necessary to drive these speakers.If you do go this route don't go half assed or the speakers won't shine like they should.The decaps are so easy a load for amps to see that they are my first choice for headache-less monitors.

[Jonathan]

Thanks for the feedback, guys.  I don't think I'm likely to run out and do anything rash like selling my De Capos, at least not yet.

That being said, I can't help but think about how the sound of the Maggies sounds more like real music to me. I agree that compared to a dynamic loudspeaker there is a much more diffuse sound to all of the instruments--almost a fuzziness around the edges of things and less definition and cohesion.  But there's an energy and immediacy about the transients that I don't hear with my De Capos, and things come out sounding less like a hi fi and more like a live musical event.
 
In truth, when I go to hear a live concert, be it jazz, classical, or rock, there is almost never any real defined imaging from side to side, nor is there a razor sharp delineation between instruments. Sure, on a large stage I can tell the direction from which an instrument is coming from, but usually by the time the sound makes it into the hall or room I'm in, it's pretty well blended together. Actually, I notice front to back spacial cues more, but the Maggies I listened to conveyed a sense of the space of the recording wonderfully well. I guess it's about the Gestalt of the music, i.e., the sound as a whole vs. each individual instrument. Of course, I can appreciate the nuance and subtlety of an individual guitar sound or violin or whatever, but (again) the Maggies just seemed to bring me deeper into the music, as opposed to listening to the gear.

Maybe I need to upgrade the rest of my system to really get the optimum sound from my De Capos, but I suppose I could say that about any speakers. The question I'm still playing with is whether or not I'd get tired of the sound of the Maggies once the novelty wore off.  I may take a pair home for the weekend and noodle around. I don't think I'd even begin to consider a change unless I was able to hear them in my room with my associated gear.

[mcrespo71]

No argument from me on your assessment that Maggies sound like live music.  I think far too few audiophiles listen to live, unamplified music to really know what it's supposed to sound like and generally get too focused on little "hi fi" minutia detail, etc. and don't see the forest from the trees.  The soundstage live is never as clearly delineated as many hi fi spekaers make it and is quite diffuse like what you described.  I've spent a lot of time with Maggie 3.6's and really think they do an amazing job recreating the live music sound.  Don't settle if you take the jump, Jonathon- I'm speaking from experience here.  My father only listened to maggies and quads as I grew up and my first pair of high end speakers were the Maggie MG 12, which I later sold.  If you like the maggie sound, go for the real ribbons!  Don't settle- the 3.6 is a tremendous speaker for the money, though I could never place it in my listening room.  I strongly urge you to only consider the 3.6 or above if you are going with maggies.

[Jonathan]

Unfortunately, I have neither the budget nor the space for a pair of 3.6s.
And just as important, the MG12s would be the only ones that might fit the room (back end of a 12 x 19 den with a TV and lots of furniture). I know that the 1.6 is a better sounding speaker, but I have a feeling that even though they're not that much larger than the 12s, my wife would have a heart attack if I brought those monoliths home. Oh well, just more stuff to fantasize about, I guess (as if there wasn't enough out there as it is).  

[mcrespo71]

I owned the MG12 for a year and a half and IMO, the De Capo's are clearly better speakers.  Moreover, I've heard the 1.6 numerous times and the De Capo I's are better speakers than those as well IMO.  Maggies need good room treatment, or the reflections are just brutal.  If you can't afford or cannot accomadate the best maggies (3.6 or above), I wouldn't buy them.  The shortcomings of Maggies (limited bass slam, lack of transparency), which are evident on all the speakers to some extent, are much harder to deal with in the smaller models.  However, they do all provide a taste of the "live sound," so if you can look past their shortcomings, enjoy em!

[Jonathan]

Thanks for your input--I do appreciate it.  Fortunately, I have a buddy who is pretty much sold on a pair of 12s or  1.6s and I may be able to talk him into letting me try them out at my place, just for fun.  

In any case, at this point I'm going to sit tight on any new purchases until I can really afford to do some major upgrading.  

-Jon

[mcrespo71]

Well, if you can swap em into your system, then I say get to it!  Also, I hope your friend get's the 1.6.  The MG12 is a good speaker and all, but I'd predict he will get some upgraditis.

[JoshK]

Jonathan,

I too have own a pair of Maggies and have audition many.  I have also heard mcrespo's system.  I can't help but also feel that anything less than the 3.6s would be a sideways step at best.   You are trading one thing for another.  

I think when you hear a new system or a new pair of speakers it is far too easy to hear what it different about it then your current system and then long to gain the differences.  Often times we overlook all the things that made you fall in love with your current speakers and fail to grasp how the new speaker don't hit those buttons.  

I my limited experience as an audiophile (not yet 30yo) I can say that sometimes the best upgrade is to improve your system's setup, to quote Julian, "the devil is in the details."  I have found that often I have gotten the very thing that I desire to gain from upgrading from one component to the next simply by improving setup of speakers, more attention to isolation of components and last but definitely not least, room treatments!

Just keep these things in mind as you audition the new speakers.  I certainly would not sell your De Capos until you have audition the Maggies in your own system.

[mcrespo71]

I my limited experience as an audiophile (not yet 30yo) I can say that sometimes the best upgrade is to improve your system's setup, to quote Julian, "the devil is in the details."

This is so very true!!!!!!  Yeah, with the exception of the lowest octave of bass, I'm quite happy with what the De Capo I's do from 45HZ up, as I think they are quite refined and certainly one of the best speakers for $2500 or less.  If you like a ribbon sound that still can carve out an image at high levels, then I'd also suggest thinking about VMPS.  Again, if you want to step up from the De Capo I's in the VMPS speaker line, I'd suggest RM30 or RM40.

I've been attacking ancillaries like crazy in my system- power cords, isolation, power conditioning, and room treatment can really kick a system to the next level for not that much extra cash.

[wongstein]

Hi Jonathan, if you try the Maggies or practically any other ribbon or electrostat, I think you'll really need the right amp, or you won't get anything near the punchy dynamics that the De Capos offer.

I tend to agree with Mike, if you're going to make the jump to big, accoustics prone, hard-to-drive, small sweet spot, kids-want-to-poke-them, cats-want-to-scratch-them speakers that may eventually need to be retensioned or re-ribboned, you should aim to get all those things that you like about ribbons in spades, plus more bass and better imaging, or you'll always be looking back.

I hate to toot my own stuff, but if you can get your hands on a Plinius 8200 MKII integrated, I highly recommend that you try it with such speakers - it works great with my Apogee Centaur Majors (which fit the bill above).  While this combo doesn't yield that in-your-face immediacy like the De Capos, I get quite enough dynamics to satisfy.  I searched high and low for this thing (plenty available used with like 5 years of warranty left on them for about $1700).  This amp also sounds great with the De Capos and maintains its neutral and honest, yet warm and musical character, so I think it's a great trial amp.

Good luck in this dilemma ..  I've seen it from the other direction:  thought about trading my Apogees for De Capos before I found the right amp that I could afford
Anthony

[mcrespo71]

Anthony,

I've only heard stellar things about the Plinius integrateds through magazines and from online folks, so it sits as one of the integrateds I need to hear.  I'm curious if it has a phono stage?  Thanks,
Michael

[wongstein]

Yes it has a reputable phono stage, and I'm bringing it over to Chris' house this weekend for some serious listening with the De Capos.

I've borrowed a Shure V15, and mean to install it in Chris's VPI HW-19jr turntable, and then compare the internal phono stage with the cheap (but good?) Musical Fidelity X-LPs.  (I'm hoping that we'll get lucky with some synergy with these items).

We'll also be doing the final critique of the De Capo tweeter upgrade, and a comparison of Skylan and Lovan stands.  We'll let you know how it goes!

Anthony

[Jonathan]

There was an interesting thread over at the Audio Asylum where someone compared an upgraded Plinius 8150 mk I (it's now a mk II, I think) to his Unison Research Unico (the amp I use to drive my De Capos).  Although he found the Plinius to handle "air" and bottom end a bit better (acknowledged weaknesses of the Unico), he ultimately found the Unico to be more engaging and involving on an emotional level, primarily because of the Unico's wonderful midrange. I also think this is one reason why the Unico and DeCapos sound so good together--great mids.

Not sure what sonic improvements have been made to the 8200 Mk II.

[wongstein]

I heard the Unico at a local dealer, and I was impressed which is not common for me at a dealership.  The sound was definitely engaging, and I recall that the mids were in fact particularily lovely - that's what drew me in.  The Unico shows its tubes a bit, but not in any bad way, from my recollection - in fact, I don't think I knew for sure that it had tubes in it until I asked.  The tube input stage seems to go great with the speed, detail and cleanliness of the one/two MOSFETs amp type (a la Pass Aleph, Cairn and Gamut amps).  I heard the Unico with the Unison CD player and some speakers I can't remember.  Chris?

Comparing the 8200 MKI against the MKII, both of which I've had in my house, but not at the same time: I think the 8200 MKII sounds more open and transparent in the mids and mid-bass, but no warmer than the MKI overall.  The bass is tighter and deeper (but I can't say for sure that it's more or less plentiful).  I think that bass was said to have been a strong point of the 8150 that was lost in the original 8200 (for better mids and highs) but ultimately regained in the MKII to make the best of both.  An 8150 can be upgraded to an 8200 MKI, but apparently neither that nor an original MKI can be upgrade to a MKII due to some major changes (presumably either to the main or preamp circuit board).

I'm not sure what the MSRP is on the Unico, but a dealer is selling one for US$1500 which is about half the 8200 MKII's MSRP and that of the new 9200, although the 8100 and new 9100 compete a little more closely in price.  This may be an example of the loose, non-linear proportionality of the cost/quality/power relationship in the amp market.

I'd love to hear these integrateds side-by-side, so I think I should try to get a review sample of the Unico this spring when we plan to get a Plinius 9200 for an Audiophiles Anonymous (our new website!) review of Redbook playback equipment.  An off-shoot review of these integrateds ought to happen as well.  We'll use the De Capos and some less sensitive speakers for a thorough review.  A small panel of local audiophiles will be involved.  Hmmm .. sure would be nice to get a Sim Audio i5 into the fray as well ...

[Brad]

Just took a quick peek on 'gon for the Unico.
Looks like there are a couple of people offering mods for it, too.

Has anyone heard a modded unit?
May combine the benefits of the Plinius with the already excellent mids of the Unico...

[Jonathan]

Has anyone heard a modded unit?  

6moons.com, who named the Unico their product of the year last year, did a review of a new "level two" modded Unico ($2200?). The reviewer loved the sound of it. What is dumb is that they neglected to compare the modded unit to the unmodded one, which, to me anyway, made the review far less informative than it could/should have been.  I still don't understand why you'd review an upgrade to your product of the year and then not do a comparison between it and the original. Oh well.

I and others at AA have asked for comments from anyone who has actually done the mods, but no one has replied--not sure if this means no one has done them, or if they're just not participants in these discussion boards.

[cyounkman]

I heard the Unico with the Unison CD player and some speakers I can't remember. Chris?

I think they were Triangles. Or Loth-X? No, we would have remembered that... Or it could have been Song Audio's smaller monitor.

Comparing the 8200 MKI against the MKII, both of which I've had in my house, but not at the same time: I think the 8200 MKII sounds more open and transparent in the mids and mid-bass, but no warmer than the MKI overall. The bass is tighter and deeper (but I can't say for sure that it's more or less plentiful).

My take is that the mkII is very free of character, where the mkI had a very attractive ripeness to it that resulted in a more romantic sound.