[jriggy]

Hey all, I am just looking for some advice in what products to use in my room?
My living room is my combination HT/2ch. I will be making a few gear changes soon, more towards 2ch but wanted to get the room under control first? I?ll give as much info as I can here, and even though I?m almost sure where I need to start, I?d be interested to hear some thoughts?

The room is 14.3 x 20 x 8.5. Textured lath and plaster walls, windows w/ velvet curtains on the front wall, windows w/ velvet curtains to the right, a hard plaster and brick fireplace to the left that sticks out 8? and curved crown molding around the top. The room is partially open in the rear to the dining room and a hallway opening to the left rear, so no full corners in the rear for tri corner anything? ~Diagram and pics are below~

When listening now, I close all curtains, scoot the tv back as far to the front wall windows as I can and use acoustic foam to the left where there are no curtains, as well as in front of the tv.

I?m fine with purchasing products from GIK and maybe the triangle tri traps from Real Traps. All I know at this point is to GIK tri trap the front two corners and take care of left first reflection at the fire place (unused fireplace) and the  first reflection windows to the right,. I assume behind the curtains on the window sill is fine?

So what else for a first round? 

Should I go GIK tri traps in the first corners double tall OR just one, and Real Trap triangles up top (witch would leave some corner revealed and I may like that look better)? I do have that crown molding taking space to deal with though.
Should I plan for any movable (WAF) treatments for the windows behind the curtains? Or possibly any at the front wall/ceiling in the middle?
Would like to take care of the front first before thinking about the back unless the back wall and tri corners are just as important?

What to do first?

Thanks
  ~J




::edited::

[jimdgoulding]

Hi.  How serious are you about going two channel only?  Stacked GIK traps will be 8' tall.  What say you to a dedicated chair instead of all that?  And an open legged end table instead of a coffee table?  You could get more in an acoustic space with your speaks by moving them out some and your seat forward some and that would translate into more of a kindred space with your recordings.  Good post, btw. 

Later . . your fireplace sticks out into the room from your photos.  We should want to damp its foward corner so it doesn't reflect bidness into your soundstage.  I like your room.  Reminds me of early California.

[MaxCast]

Hi J,
I like Jim's ideas. 
1.  I would use full bass traps in the front corners.
2.  Check your speaker and listening position against room set up guides by cardas, real traps, etc.
3.  Try removing your coffee table and see how that sounds.  Maybe get buy with a hassock. 
4.  Try to use uniform left and right first reflection point products and positions. 

I would do #2 & 3 first as they are free and it will take a couple attempts. 

How far are your baffles in front of your screen?
How does your room sound? lively, echoy, laid back, etc.
Using thicker wool or glass panels will reach lower in frequency than the foam.  How thick is the foam?
How much waf is there in the room?

Nice looking set up, btw.

[jriggy]

Changing  my living room/HT/2ch set up into a one chair listening environment with no coffee table is definitely not going to happen...     Maybe when we finish the attic I will get the 'big' spare room for a dedicated room but until then............

The diagram is not totally correct on speaker placement anymore. The front baffle is 54" from the front wall... Cardas system did not quite work in my room believe it or not. other than it asking for the speakers to be another 20" out into thr room, the distance from side walls put the speakers to close together for a good wide sound-stage. It was congested and lacked any pinpoint separation of instruments. I did gain very nice depth but lost width and life other wise. Besides that, the sweet spot shrunk even more... I equated that, among other things, is I am pushing maximum density here with these big Dyn 5.4's in a room this size (but I love a full range 3 way!). Im sure a smaller speaker would be able to get much closer to cardas and work better... I may be able to pull them out a bit more but have been doing that just every other day or so recently. I will squeeze a little more out of them in that respect
Unfortunately going with out a table is not an option either but getting a smaller one is... Ill look into that!

The room doesn't sound to bad actually. Its a little lively but not to much, not quite as laid back as i would like at the speaker baffles but that is probably gear related as I get good depth at times. the soundstage is good just a little fuzzy... I dont tend to listen at a reference level that often (75 to 80db+), usually more around 70db give or take.
I would just like to tighten and clarify it more and maybe get a little closer to cardas for a more holographic effect after some treatments I would suppose...

The WAF is good here! she loves it too! and thinks the look of commercial products will be fine. so the foam can go!

I know Im going to start with the front corners and the symmetrical first reflection but did not know what exact GIK product to use for first reflection or what else and where I should think about next?

~J

[Scottdazzle]

J,

I have just added GIK table traps and GIK elite pillar traps to my room.  I think they look much nicer than tri traps.  Very good WAF and they work.  Check them out the next time you go to their website. 

Scott

[jimdgoulding]

My front baffle is 54" out from the wall behind my speaks, too.  Now I know you're weird.  The separation of your speakers looks fine, IME, as does the toe-in.  You're probably batting 300 already and I agree with what Max said and his order.  Your tele appears to be recessed in an alcove.  That right?  If it's forward of your walls, it could be better if it wasn't.  I see a foam panel covering your screen (?).  I would think that's a good idea.   

I'm thinkin a pair of Reference 3A Veena's would like your room better.  And mine, too.

[jriggy]

Now I know you're weird.

Yep! They are 54" out and 3 or 4" more apart on each side than Cardas asked for. And no toe-in what so ever.
Ooooh! A speaker recommendation! Now that is all I need right now is another pair to research. Really though Jim, thanks alot for that suggestion. Im going to look into those... Not to derail my own thread but do you know anything about the high end on Ref 3A's? Im a lil sensitive to any sort of brightness, that's why I went with Dynaudio; for the soft dome tweeter...

The TV is not recessed but I do scoot it back to the window and put the foam up when listening.

Im going to try to contact GIK in a day or two and get going with a first round purchase!

OH and by the way Jim, I used your defractors on my Dyn 220's earlier in the year and just realized they will fit these 5.4's almost just right also! So I will be adding them for a listen this week end...

[jimdgoulding]

Oh heck yeah, put em on!  Great to get a surprise like that.  You might get one, too.  All I know about the Veena's, and I meant the Grand Veena's, actually, is that they use Bybees in a minimal network with no crossovers in the mid and upper bass range and that they are fans of carbon fiber drivers.  You can read TAS' Harry Pearson's wow review of them at their site with more info bout their unique thinking and construction.  Bon apetit and tell me after you've listened with your "defractors" on for awhile.  Thanks.       

[bpape]

Whether you do 2 Tri Traps and 2 of Ethan's corners or 4 Tri Traps, you're getting the extra surface area you need.

The FIRST thing I'd do is figure out how to get the equipment rack out of the corner where there is huge bass buildup happening.  Not good for source components.

Bryan

[bmckenney]

I'd get move that rack outta the corner too, especially to make room for some traps.  Looks like this is a living room first, listening room second.  So if you have the bucks, I'd get the GIK pillar traps in the corners and replace the rack, round coffee table etc, with the elite pillar furniture look.  If you don't have the bucks, and can tolerate the look, then I'd look to put Tri's in the corners.  I personally managed to make the room look good with Tri's.  The Tri's are cheaper than the pillars so you could put two in each corner for probably less than one of the pillars in each corner.  More bang for the buck.  Might look good too.  And from your drawing it looks like you can not put bass traps in the back corners because of entrances/doorways so the more bass traps you get in the front corners the better.  Another idea might be to put some bass traps (panel types maybe) in that alcove behind the TV.  Maybe sideways on the floor behind the TV.  Looks like there is room there.  Another option might be one panel bass trap dead center between the speakers, at the ceiling wall boundary, just above the drapes, straddling the wall and ceiling.  Could look kinda nice.  Not sure where else you can put traps.  But I'd try and get at least 4 in there but stretch it to 6 for good effect.  I'll bet 6 will really sound impressive.

[jimdgoulding]

Whether you do 2 Tri Traps and 2 of Ethan's corners or 4 Tri Traps, you're getting the extra surface area you need.

The FIRST thing I'd do is figure out how to get the equipment rack out of the corner where there is huge bass buildup happening.  Not good for source components.

Bryan

Uh huh.  Stacked traps in those corners will even your bass out and perceptively add some space and clarity to your proceedings (right Bryan?).  Something else, your speakers will get some gain from that space once its cleaned up .  Read about those Veena's?

[jriggy]

Looks like this is a living room first, listening room second.

Well, thats up for debate 

Re the system rack: I never thought of the bass build up effecting the gear like other vibrations! It is actual 18" or so out from the corner and can come out more. Would it be safe having the rack siting close in front of a tri corner in that corner or should I still look into moving it??? 

I like the idea of the more furniture grade treatments but I think the tri's will look fine with the corner table pulled out in front on the right and the system rack hiding the other.

And thanks for the advice on behind the tv and above. I was wondering about just that.

Read about those Veena's?

Checked out their site and noticed how gorgeous they are and how much better they would look in the room. Looking forward to reading about them

[bmckenney]

And thanks for the advice on behind the tv and above. I was wondering about just that.

I would phone Bryan at GIK and ask where he suggests you put the traps just to validate.  From all the advice I've received, and from my own test with a simple SPL meter, the corners and the front wall along the floor and ceiling have bass build up that can be aborbed to good affect.

Good hunting and post back when you decide and for sure after you get some.

Bryan

[bpape]

Just remember that whatever you put in front of a treatment impedes sound getting to the treatment.  Deep bass isn't as bad since the waves are so large but upper bass/lower mids can definitely be impacted.

Bryan

[MaxCast]

Keep thinking full traps in the front corners.  You can get those end table thingies in addition.
Also, when you are board some day try removing the coffee table for a night and see what you think.

Regarding a rack, think wide and low under the TV.

[max190]

J,
This is what I would do first...
The rack has to go. Like MaxCast said "think wide and low under the TV". All your cables should not have to be changed doing this.

Next get rid of that front round table.

Now you can trap your front corners. Not sure what your budget is but you could stack (2) GIK 244's in each corner for less cash than the tri's.  The 244's will take up more space though straddling the corners.

Whenever your going to treat a room think balance. Whatever you do in one corner or side wall, do the same to the other.

Now temp move the coffee and that front right end table out of the room. Instead of moving your 5.4's try moving your LP back a little. Stay away from the center of the room at all possible. This may help your depth and soundstage width. Also I would toe-in your Dyn's just a little paying attention to the critical midrange.

Do a little at a time and just listen. I know what your 5.4's are capable of since I own the 3.4's.

Good Luck,
   

 



 

[jriggy]

Well crap...

I have a friend that works at a machine shop, so I have been racking my brain for the last hour or so, thinking of a new and workable 'cut up' re-design of my two salamander synergy rack pieces...  I originally did it this way for the - not to tall - screen height and center channel combination, the shorter length of the tv/center stand not getting in the way of the rear ports on the Dyn's, as well as room for the sub there next to the stand... Now Im left searching prices for a Synergy Triple with the extra top shelf instead... Bummer...

I have a hand-made, hardwood, lowish double wide piece of furniture that I could use for the system (getting rid of the tall rack), in the mean time, IF it could sit up against the left wall and small fire place corner. And the length of this other piece would leave enough room for a corner treatment as well... It would sit only 20" from the left speaker for the time being, but would that be better temporarily than the tall rack in the corner??? (would it loosely act more like a diffuser than close reflection for the time being hopefully?)
I could then take my time and find good price on a triple wide and center channel capable rack piece to house the system AND the center channel... Salamander is the only modulars I have ever found capable of this anyway.

So would the system on a shorter piece of furniture I have, sitting to the left, out of the room corner, work better than the tall rack for the time being? so I could still invest in some treatments now, hold off the 2ch pre and then find the one piece furniture answer, combining the system, center and tv, clearing the corners at the same time... ???

Well... Turned into a whole extra step than I wasnt  prepared for but thats why Im here - to get this right...

Thanks guys

 ~J

PS: the lay out is still up in post one but thats it.

[MaxCast]

J, how many components do you need to rack?
Can you do any diy? (drill, stain)
Also consider two double racks placed next to each other.  Could look uniform and nice.

[jimdgoulding]

Well crap...

I have a friend that works at a machine shop, so I have been racking my brain for the last hour or so, thinking of a new and workable 'cut up' re-design of my two salamander synergy rack pieces...  I originally did it this way for the - not to tall - screen height and center channel combination, the shorter length of the tv/center stand not getting in the way of the rear ports on the Dyn's, as well as room for the sub there next to the stand... Now Im left searching prices for a Synergy Triple with the extra top shelf instead... Bummer...

I have a hand-made, hardwood, lowish double wide piece of furniture that I could use for the system (getting rid of the tall rack), in the mean time, IF it could sit up against the left wall and small fire place corner. And the length of this other piece would leave enough room for a corner treatment as well... It would sit only 20" from the left speaker for the time being, but would that be better temporarily than the tall rack in the corner??? (would it loosely act more like a diffuser than close reflection for the time being hopefully?)
I could then take my time and find good price on a triple wide and center channel capable rack piece to house the system AND the center channel... Salamander is the only modulars I have ever found capable of this anyway.

So would the system on a shorter piece of furniture I have, sitting to the left, out of the room corner, work better than the tall rack for the time being? so I could still invest in some treatments now, hold off the 2ch pre and then find the one piece furniture answer, combining the system, center and tv, clearing the corners at the same time... ???

Well... Turned into a whole extra step than I wasnt  prepared for but thats why Im here - to get this right...

Thanks guys

 ~J

PS: the lay out is still up in post one but thats it.

'Well, crap' . . I feel ya, but you'll be the happier for the payoff when you sit and listen.  Your room is fundamentally a good one I should think and there's a greater soundstage in there that you will uncover.

[jriggy]

hey guys,

 Well, at this point Im tring to decide on two single racks next to each other, low and to the left of the left speaker (out of the corner of course) OR a triple rack in the center with the center ch on a stand out in front of it. but then I would have the rear port on the center to deal with... Its just that a triple rack with a center ch shelf would raise the tv a possible 8" or more, and we really like the eye level it is at but may sacrifice that to take care of this issue of my rack being in the corner...

Any opinions on the rack being low and to the left out of the corner??? The rack and gear would be just below the drivers and even lower than the 'tweeter on bottom' dynaudio's.

So my options are:

-Centered triple rack with center ch riser for all gear AND center ch.. Witch would raise the tv possibly more than we would like (I assume we would get used to it though)

-Centered triple rack for all gear but w/out center ch riser, setting center ch on a stand out in front of the rack. This would keep the tv at the height it is now but would then have the rear port of the center speaker to deal with sitting in front of whatever gear would be on the middle shelf (most likely the amp and power conditioner, but the port would be very close to em possibly effecting sound)

-Two short singles or one short double rack for all gear to the left of the left speaker, sitting snug to the side of the fire place, where you see all the cd's and resting dark colored acoustic foam. witch would let me keep the center ch and tv just the way it is but would put the gear closer to the side of the speaker (yet low enough?)

I have a decision to make here obviously 

Off to the side would be good but is that good enough for the final goal of increasing soundstage and getting the rack out of the corner?

Jason

PS: the photos of my room are now in my gallery