The dB Audio Labs Tranquility DAC - Wow!

srb · « **Reply #20 on:** 6 Dec 2009, 08:29 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 6 Dec 2009, 08:13 pm

I know Eric pretty well and while he doesn't divulge to many of their trade secretes, I do know enough to know that they are doing some things no one else is and I doubt they will go public with those things at all if they can help it. They have some clear competitive advantages.

Okay Danny, but can you or someone who has one please tell us if it accepts high res files (24bit/96KHz or greater) or is limited to 16bit/48KHz? We still don't consider that a trade secret or proprietary detail.

Steve

ted_b · « **Reply #21 on:** 6 Dec 2009, 08:30 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 6 Dec 2009, 08:13 pm

It is not about the numbers or the bit rates.

Who cares what's in it. Just listen to it and decide if it is worth it or not.

?? So, according to your advice, if I play a 24/176 or 24/192 file to this DAC and it plays back noise or nothing, then I should assume it's no good?? Maybe I'm playing the wrong source, and it only handles redbook., or up to 24/48. I'd be missing out then!! ??

Being facetious here of course, but this whole thing of saying it's not about bit rates or about whats in it is very very bizarre. If it can't play any of my HiRez music, then I kinda need to know that.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #22 on:** 6 Dec 2009, 08:36 pm »

This model does not do 24/96. They do have higher end models but wanted to launch the budget version first. So if you have to have one that does the higher bit rates then just wait a little while. They will have one. And I will likely order one as soon as it is ready.

When I say it is not about the bit rate, what I mean is that it is not about the numbers. Just because a chip set will play back a higher sampling rate does not mean that the whole thing is going to sound better than one with a lower sampling rate.

srb · « **Reply #23 on:** 6 Dec 2009, 08:40 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 6 Dec 2009, 08:36 pm

This model does not do 24/96. They do have higher end models but wanted to launch the budget version first. So if you have to have one that does the higher bit rates then just wait a little while. They will have one. And I will likely order one as soon as it is ready.

Thank You.

Quote from: Danny on 6 Dec 2009, 08:36 pm

When I say it is not about the bit rate, what I mean is that it is not about the numbers. Just because a chip set will play back a higher sampling rate does not mean that the whole thing is going to sound better than one with a lower sampling rate.

Understood.

Steve

ted_b · « **Reply #24 on:** 6 Dec 2009, 08:43 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 6 Dec 2009, 08:36 pm

This model does not do 24/96. They do have higher end models but wanted to launch the budget version first. So if you have to have one that does the higher bit rates then just wait a little while. They will have one. And I will likely order one as soon as it is ready.

When I say it is not about the bit rate, what I mean is that it is not about the numbers. Just because a chip set will play back a higher sampling rate does not mean that the whole thing is going to sound better than one with a lower sampling rate.

Thank you! I don't know why that basic info was so difficult to uncover; not your fault or your problem....but a note back to the mfg'er that people need to know what the DAC can read.

srb · « **Reply #25 on:** 6 Dec 2009, 08:50 pm »

On a very positive note, I did find out on the website that the Tranquility is

Proudly designed, manufactured and assembled entirely in the United States!

I agree that does deserve an exclamation mark!

Steve

Danny Richie · « **Reply #26 on:** 6 Dec 2009, 09:03 pm »

I can kind of see them not wanting to publicize too much, as people tend to just use it as a check list. 24 bit (check), USB (check), fiber optic (check), Up-samples to 192/196/320 something, blah, blah, blah... (check).

The simple truth is that 99% of everything in every ones audio library is 16 bit recorded.

Adding multiple inputs degrades the signal even if they are not in use, yes just having them on there.

And up-sampling does not sound natural.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #27 on:** 6 Dec 2009, 10:44 pm »

Oh yeah, and the Tranquility DAC will pay anything you can send it (sort of). In computer audio, the computer knows what DAC is hooked up to it and what to send it. You can play the higher sampling rate signals but the computer will reduce it down to the lower sampling rate.

What's funny is that with this DAC, it may still sound better then many or most of the other DAC's even though the others can play the higher bit rates.

srb · « **Reply #28 on:** 6 Dec 2009, 10:52 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 6 Dec 2009, 10:44 pm

In computer audio, the computer knows what DAC is hooked up to it and what to send it. You can play the higher sampling rate signals but the computer will reduce it down to the lower sampling rate.

Don't know about the Mac platform, but on the Windows platform, when bypassing the internal Windows mixer using a kernel streaming driver in exclusive mode, there will be no resampling (that's kind of the goal). The computer will send the file in it's native format.

Steve

Danny Richie · « **Reply #29 on:** 6 Dec 2009, 11:10 pm »

Bummer, the Mac does it automatically.

I think there is also some very expensive licensing on some programing that lets the Tranquility DAC communicate with the computer via the direct I2S connection. There might be something going on there to enable that too.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #30 on:** 6 Dec 2009, 11:11 pm »

While discussing the relative merits of the digital technologies used in competing products one does well to remember that all of these products stand or fall on the strength of their analogue output stage. In the case of the Cambridge 840C it has an OPA2134 for the final analogue output stage. While these aren't bad sounding opamps there are certainly better sounding ones out there. The power supply for the analogue stage could also be upgraded with with Jensen 4 pole capacitors. The point is this is a CD player with near state of the art digital technology in it for a street price of only $1,595. It is a waste of time to criticize the digital technology in potentially competing products when it is not an apple to apple comparison. On the basis of my own experience I would not expect most standalone CD players to compete with a USB DAC driven from a computer anyway. Whether their marketing strategy of near zero information about their product on their website causes them to succeed or fail remains to be seen. I personally don't think this strategy has much merit. In the absence magazine reviews or online buzz people tend to compare products on the basis of their specifications,product features and applied technology. As a contrasting example examine the the Cambridge website.They fully disclose the applied digital technologies that are used in their products. As I see it dB Audio Labs
major competitor is Wavelength Audio with their line of Asynchronous USB DACs. dB Audio Labs failure to specify whether their DAC
operates asynchronously is an oversight on their part and needs to be dealt with. I do think their initial offering is functionally obsolete as it down samples all higher data rates. As it stands we have trianglezerius's report and he heard what he heard, short of criticizing the website's
lack of information which has been done there really is nothing further to be said about a product none us has heard for ourselves.

Scotty

brj · « **Reply #31 on:** 6 Dec 2009, 11:33 pm »

Quote from: srb

As far as my previous post, I am not a believer in cryogenically treating circuitry. NASA acknowledges that cryogenics can increase the dimensional stability of metals, however they do not cryogenically treat electronic circuits that go into space.

Steve, I agree with your fundamental point that information that affects compatibility with other components or computer audio data formats should be included. I wouldn't, however, let NASA's choices dictate yours... they have a budget and have specified processes for trading risk against performance. Given budget constraints, they may choose additional backups or increased risk because they can't afford the cost of the increased performance. They are usually just moving data around as well, and can thus take advantage of error correcting protocols. Consumer audio doesn't really have any of those issues or benefits - they just have to worry about that pesky customer!

trianglezerius, thanks for the review. It would be helpful to those reading it if you could more fully describe the system you tested with, the room and its treatments, the type of music you used, your own acoustic preferences, etc.. The more you pass along, the better others can relate!

Thanks!

srb · « **Reply #32 on:** 7 Dec 2009, 12:04 am »

Quote from: brj on 6 Dec 2009, 11:33 pm

I wouldn't, however, let NASA's choices dictate yours... they have a budget and have specified processes for trading risk against performance. Given budget constraints, they may choose additional backups or increased risk because they can't afford the cost of the increased performance. They are usually just moving data around as well, and can thus take advantage of error correcting protocols. Consumer audio doesn't really have any of those issues or benefits - they just have to worry about that pesky customer!

Okay. Maybe I don't have a problem with cryogenics or know enough about it relative to electronics. Perhaps it was more the tradename CTIC(tm) applied to generic cryogenically treated integrated circuits. The Tranquility DAC has zero feedback discrete Class A outputs. How about ZFDCAO(tm)?

Like Danny and others have said, the DAC will be judged ultimately on it's sound, not on it's specs. I just think the clandestine approach will make it more difficult for sales to get out of the starting gate with any significant numbers.

On a side note, NASA shuttle astronauts do use iPods for their audio systems. The lithium batteries are replaced with alkaline type to meet safety guidelines, and the device is not yet approved for the Space Station itself. But I think they are all "modded" with an ESS Sabre32 9018 DAC and have dual ultra-miniature DHT tube outputs.

Steve

satfrat · « **Reply #33 on:** 7 Dec 2009, 12:08 am »

Quote

On a side note, NASA shuttle astronauts do use iPods for their audio systems. The lithium batteries are replaced with alkaline type to meet safety guidelines, and the device is not yet approved for the Space Station itself. But I think they are all "modded" with an ESS Sabre32 9018 DAC and have dual ultra-miniature DHT tube outputs.

Steve

Very interesting Steve.

konut · « **Reply #34 on:** 7 Dec 2009, 12:36 am »

An intriguing product. I can appreciate the simplicity of the circuitry contributing to superior sound and the use of a class A output stage, BUT how in the world can I determine whether it is appropriate for my system? No output impedance spec. or voltage output spec. make it impossible to ascertain if it will work for me. Surely this info can't be "proprietary"! It would cost almost $150 to find out if it is NOT compatible with my setup(restocking fee+ shipping). Danny, can you measure the output?

WGH · « **Reply #35 on:** 7 Dec 2009, 01:41 am »

Quote from: konut on 7 Dec 2009, 12:36 am

No output impedance spec. or voltage output spec. make it impossible to ascertain if it will work for me.

Audio by Van Alstine also does not publish specs for their equipment but all a person has to do is call because they are not a secret, plus AVA has a stellar reputation for quality. A new company has to go the extra mile to get customers, flowery obtuse language only goes so far.

The website says "the Tranquility DAC is the cumulation of over three years of research and development by an assembled team of engineers who previously worked at Bell Laboratories." so publishing some actual numbers should not be too hard.

Without some hard information about the quality inside, the dB Audio Labs Tranquility DAC is destined to be just another flavor of the month.

Wayne

TRADERXFAN · « **Reply #36 on:** 7 Dec 2009, 01:46 am »

Quote from: konut on 7 Dec 2009, 12:36 am

An intriguing product. I can appreciate the simplicity of the circuitry contributing to superior sound and the use of a class A output stage, BUT how in the world can I determine whether it is appropriate for my system? No output impedance spec. or voltage output spec. make it impossible to ascertain if it will work for me. Surely this info can't be "proprietary"! It would cost almost $150 to find out if it is NOT compatible with my setup(restocking fee+ shipping). Danny, can you measure the output?

On the website they have contact info so you might try that route.

I don't think they are deliberately hiding information like this. By and large, most people (not specifically AC'ers) don't know that info about their source equipment, or what it means.

-Tony

TRADERXFAN · « **Reply #37 on:** 7 Dec 2009, 01:55 am »

I don't blame them for marketing it this way. Most people will compare some spec and say that must mean something. They are not selling based on spec's. A lot of equipment is sold based on reputation. They are making some strong claims and if they hold up, they will find plenty of people willing to buy.

Look at how amplifiers tend to be specified... slew rate, thd, watts rms, etc. Or TV's with resolution, brightness, dynamic contrast specs. So there are people, and I know many, who just look at a few specs on things, get hung up on them. They think these numbers must be what you are supposed to base your decision on.

To me, it sounds like DB is taking a different approach where they are saying to judge it on what you hear, and this approach is just not well accepted by some here. The low intro pricing gives them a better chance to build up a reputation with this design.

-Tony

ted_b · « **Reply #38 on:** 7 Dec 2009, 01:59 am »

Quote from: TRADERXFAN on 7 Dec 2009, 01:46 am

[. By and large, most people (not specifically AC'ers) don't know that info about their source equipment, or what it means.

-Tony

I disagree. A DAC product is a specialized product, sold to a specialized niche. It is neither a source product nor an amplified one, but goes "inline". To that end, us DAC users have some very basic "need to know" hurdles before we evaluate further. Nothing proprietary or of any intellectual property or competitive advantage...or that can even be deemed vague (power specs, thd, etc.)....just simple stuff like what it plays, what it connects to, and what are it's output specs. Although the analogy is not a tight one, would you buy a flatscreen if they didn't at least tell you the size, and whether it was 1080p or 720p?

TRADERXFAN · « **Reply #39 on:** 7 Dec 2009, 02:15 am »

Well, if it was a 42" or less, some debate that you could actually perceive a difference based on 720 or 1080 on it. So to make something 1080 might be something designers deem to be a waste of money, but is a consumers "must have". So it distracts them.

I have friends and acquaintances that will buy a DAC and don't know crap about them. Mostly because they read a review and the reviewer has a DAC.

I do think they should put the impedence and voltage specs up for those that want it. But clock, jitter rates, asynchronicity, chipsets, etc, -maybe not so much.

-Tony