[Bill Baker]

I have been following this thread and was not going to respond but I guess it wouldn't hurt to throw in my 2 cents.

A 'modification' is an alteration of the circuit or value(s) of components. While many may not agree, there are products out there that have a lot of potential but need some modifiction to bring all their potential to the table. These are almost always lower cost pieces so even with some additional money thrown at them, they are still very affordable.

After almost 15 years of doing this, I have seen a lot of bad designs as well as many good and even unique designs. This allowed us to understand what NOT to do when we started designing our own products years ago.

 Then there are preferences of designers/modders. Some will prefer film caps over electrolytics in power supply applications, a specific capacitor manufacturer for coupling, tube or SS rectification and the list goes on. In regard to tubes, I do not have an overall preference. It usually depends on the product and system. One has to keep in mind that these are personal preferences and not rule of thumb. It does not mean that one is right or wrong.

 There are some issues that can be considered improper but Frank addressed most of these so no need to go further.

 Boutique parts...... This is a debate that will never have closure. No comment.

[lcrim]

I took issue w/ the OP for starting a thread which in my perception anyway disparages a group of industry professionals and site members.
Apparently there were others who also had opinions on this issue and they weighed in.  It seems that we went full Circle and somehow came back to this issue of disparaging others that bothered me in the first place.
I will continue to try and keep this a friendly place where a myriad of opinions can be openly and politely expressed and discussed. 
Live and let live is not such a difficult concept to understand.

[Pez]

Please tell me what boutique grade audiophile parts are being made by Electrical Engineers?  Point me to their web sites so I can investigate.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

From the highly sought after V-Cap capacitor website. "The V-Cap TFTF Teflon? film and tin foil audiophile capacitors are the result of an extensive research and development project by a team of world-renowned experts in electrical engineering, chemistry, materials science, and some of the top minds (and "ears") in the audio industry. These experts were commissioned to help design, build, and evaluate a "cost-no-object" capacitor for reference-grade audiophile applications. The resulting series of proprietary materials and processes has produced what we believe is one of the most extraordinary, musical capacitors ever made."

http://www.v-cap.com/tefloncapacitors.html

That seems pretty definitive to me. Not that I believe that a singular answer would be enough for any skeptic so here's more...

Edcor, maker of custom wound transformers has an entire engineering department obviously stated here: http://www.edcorusa.com/Articles/ShowArticle.aspx?ID=29

Jack Bybee is a physicist of the highest calibre and it doesn't get any more "boutique" than his products which deal with quantum effects in the signal path. http://www.bybeetech.com/aboutus.asp

ASC company makes many different items for audio and other industries again with their own engineering dept. http://www.ascapacitor.com/about/

Interesting point made on the Sonicap website: "One of the most significant discoveries I made several years ago when designing speakers was that regardless of response curves, the use of certain crossover components, connections, and wire made a vast improvement over the main stream parts currently available.  The improvements were independent of the "standard methods" of quantifying quality, but special component construction/design reproduced better sound.  Some of these qualities are difficult or impossible to quantify at this time.  This type of scenario has given rise to convictions such as: "For those who have experienced it, no explanation is necessary.....for those who have not, none is possible".  The formally educated side of me is disturbed by this.  None the less, I hear what I hear.  Case in point, the speaker that measures great, but sounds mediocre at best.  You may know the story, but how about the solution?  Simple, all the right variables are not being measured, or identified for that matter.  Again, all quality has yet to be quantified."

http://www.soniccraft.com/index.htm

Any way I think it's folly to believe that boutique parts are not being manufactured by very credible companies like WBT, Hammond, Jensen etc. These companies have extensive knowledge and education in the audio field there is no denying that. And there's no denying their results.

[TomS]

Please tell me what boutique grade audiophile parts are being made by Electrical Engineers?  Point me to their web sites so I can investigate.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

Well, does a PhD in Physics count, such as Dan Babineau of RTI Electronics and Running Springs Audio?  IEEE, AES member, so perhaps an engineer as well ... and apparently he designs lots of caps.
http://www.rtie.com/imb/audio_fc.htm
http://www.runningspringsaudio.com/philosophy3.htm

[*Scotty*]

verdun47,Designing audio circuits is a creative/learning experience,as time goes on and the circuit is re-evaluated a refinement of the circuit may occur to the designer. Likewise a entirely better way of accomplishing the goal may be envisioned and a completely different circuit gets built. This is an ongoing evolutionary process which leads to better and better sounding circuits over time.
Designing audio circuits is not something that occurs in a static unchanging environment. Ford Motor Co. summed up this very eloquently,"The Best Never Rest".
Scotty

[satfrat]

verdun47,Designing audio circuits is a creative/learning experience,as time goes on and the circuit is re-evaluated a refinement of the circuit may occur to the designer. Likewise a entirely better way of accomplishing the goal may be envisioned and a completely different circuit gets built. This is an ongoing evolutionary process which leads to better and better sounding circuits over time.
Designing audio circuits is not something that occurs in a static unchanging environment. Ford Motor Co. summed up this very eloquently,"The Best Never Rest".
Scotty

Ford musta been talking about someone else,,, 

[JerryM]

Modify or upgrade?

Nobody is better at it than Merriam Webster. 

Main Entry: mod?i?fy
Pronunciation: \ˈm?-də-ˌfī\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): mod?i?fied; mod?i?fy?ing
Etymology: Middle English modifien, from Anglo-French modifier, from Latin modificare to measure, moderate, from modus
Date: 14th century
transitive verb
1 : to make less extreme : moderate
2 a : to limit or restrict the meaning of especially in a grammatical construction b : to change (a vowel) by umlaut
3 a : to make minor changes in b : to make basic or fundamental changes in often to give a new orientation to or to serve a new end <the wing of a bird is an arm modified for flying>

Main Entry: up?grade
Pronunciation: \ˈəp-ˌgrād\
Function: noun
Date: 1873
1 : an upward grade or slope
2 : increase, rise
3 : improvement.

Have fun,
Jerry

[verdun47]

Scotty #64    Thanks for that.   Re # 59  The whole sentence  'BUT INFORMATION AND DESIGN EVOLVE'  would have been better in caps.
Cheers
Verdun

[Bill Baker]

  There are some things you cannot "see" on a scope. You can have two components that measure the same but sound completely different.

[Pez]

Now there's something that I agree 100% with. I don't know why 2 things can sound different and measure the same all I know is they do.

[srb]

Now there's something that I agree 100% with. I don't know why 2 things can sound different and measure the same all I know is they do.

There is probably some other parameter that could be measured, but it is unknown.  In school, I was taught that all electronic circuits could be explained through some form of resistance, capacitance or inductance.
 
But I'm not so sure.  They're still discovering new components of the atom!
 
Steve

[K Shep]

K Shep- it just your post #1 read that non manufacturer modders/upgraders sell snake oil - you could have been clearer and suggested some modders sell snake oil.

a 3rd party mod company selling snake oil.

My comment was singular.  Please learn the english language if you are going to quote me. 

How does one know there has been an audible change (upgrade/modification) in a component if he doesn't have 2 of the same component, one production (stock) unit and one modified unit to a/b test (compare)?

[K Shep]

Jack Bybee is a physicist of the highest calibre and it doesn't get any more "boutique" than his products which deal with quantum effects in the signal path.

Pez,
I looked at Bybee's website and I found this:

Jack Bybee considers the Golden Goddess 'Super Effect' Speaker Bullets the ultimate audio improvement component for very high-resolution audio systems. They deliver stunning improvements in detail retrieval, ambience and spatial presentation, vocal and instrumental color, transient and dynamic impact, and harmonic completeness. With a simple plug-in connection, the GG SE Speaker Bullets surpass even the benefits of all but the most extensive system-wide internal Bybee modification upgrades to amplifiers, preamplifiers, loudspeakers, cables, etc.

The Golden Goddess 'Super Effect' Speaker Bullets incorporate a newly developed combination of carbon nanotube and gold-based quantum purification technologies. They resemble the existing Bybee Golden Goddess Speaker Cable Tails in that they attach to the speakers' binding posts and can therefore be used with any speaker cable. They utilize the latest Eichmann silver spades, with Eichmann 5-way Cable Pods at the receiving end.

For loudspeakers with recessed or difficult-to-reach terminals, the Eichmann silver spade connectors may be carefully bent to facilitate connection. Although dramatic sonic improvements will be quickly audible, a burn-in period of 50-100 hours will enable the Super Effect Speaker Bullets to reach full performance.
GSB 001 Golden Goddess 'Super Effect' Speaker Bullets (set) $4200

This I find hard to believe. 

[*Scotty*]

K Shep,Basically you don't unless your memory is really good. Your most recent post takes this thread in another direction,which is your call,I have no further comments to make.
Scotty

[verdun47]

Bill Baker #60     Bill by boutique, do you mean high performance parts ?

[Bill Baker]

Bill Baker #60     Bill by boutique, do you mean high performance parts ?

 Teflon caps, Silver/Gold Caps, cryo'ed wire, Bybees, Silver resistors...... stuff like that. There are many that do not beleive in these 'expensive' components and feel they bring nothing to the table.

[Pez]

What I fail to understand time and time again, when people argue that tweaks and minor part changes do not make an appreciable sonic difference. Often they mention the electrical equivalence of two products. They clearly intend to argue that "If they measure the same, they're the same" but how many speakers share very similar electrical properties such as impedance, size, sensitivity, etc etc etc, yet nobody in their right mind would tell you there are no sonic differences between driver A and driver B. However the same standard apparently does not apply to certain things in the signal path, cabling, capacitors, resistors and on and on. It seems to me to be quite a double standard in that everything in the signal path is mechanical and will add something. I'm not claiming that every little thing will be discernible by human ears, I am however dubious of the claim that it will NEVER be discernible.

The debate always takes the heinous left turn into DBT territory, but nobody ever takes into account that there are very rarely DBT test done in ANY aspect of this hobby regardless of which side of the fence you sit on the issue. If you're going to argue DBT you better damn well do nothing but DBT on any aspect of your designs and/or setup top to bottom otherwise the point is hypocritical.

[verdun47]

Thanks for your reply Bill.  Bybees, for one, I have no experience of.  But I have cryo'ed ICs and power cords as a test (and been pleased with the result - I and my freinds discerned a benefit - have not the slightest idea if it's effect on music could ever be measured, though having said that the effect of cryoing, on metal has been established by University research I understand. (Its effect on some race car engine internals is known I've heard). Unfortunately the reasonably accessible plant I used closed.   A freindly high-end dealer tells me he can not only hear the effect of substituting silver fuses, but also their direction - assumes a well resolved system I suspect.

Question Bill - would you expect to hear any difference if you swapped from standard grade Cu wire to monocrystal wire? 

[RUR]

...though having said that the effect of cryoing, on metal has been established by University research I understand. (Its effect on some race car engine internals is known I've heard)...

Can you please cite the university research which demonstrates post-cryo improvement in electrical performance for wire?  Or is this hearsay?   

[verdun47]

RUR please reread: I said    ....effect of cryoing on metal, not 'metal wire.'
However googling produced some info eg
 
How cryogenics works      >>>    "Complete transformation of retained austenite to martensite. Martensite is a harder more wear-resistant structure."

"Of course, cryogenics was used in the aerospace industry but never heard of on the open market."

There was better info but I was not allowed to copy it.

You could view before and after microphotos on the Cryogenics International website.  BTW worth reading their Audio sect. The effect for audio products is said to be about 'relieving stress.'
 
If you wish to go further you could go to    UCLA Chemical and Biomolecular Engineering >> Cryogenics Laboratory

Probably worth reading the interview on cryogenics in Positive Feedback Online #21