Component Mods

K Shep · « **on:** 3 Dec 2009, 09:07 pm »

There has been some interest in the 2 websites that I frequent regarding "modifying/up-grading" existing equipment. I have read some of the modifiers' websites and I am dubious as to the actual improvement provided. That got me to thinking about my favorite piece in my kit, my Conrad Johnson CT5 preamp. I looked on the CJ website and the offer model upgrades and capacitor upgrades, not for my model, but the older gear. So as R&D progesses at CJ they may come up with an upgrade for my unit...yes I will send my preamp in to have it brought up to include all the current bells and whistles. I had the opportunity to hear AVA gear at a fellow AC's home and AVA is in my sites too, especially considering Frank will upgrade the component down the road, I find that a huge plus.

In my mind that is different than a 3rd party mod company, forgive me, selling snake oil. This may raise an eyebrow or two, but I would like to hear from you. Am I a hypocrite, wait, don't answer that.

verdon47 I didn't mean to steal your thunder.

lcrim · « **Reply #1 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 10:04 pm »

K shep:
The wholesale smearing of all 3rd party modders is a foolish generality. I would ask you to be more careful. Live and let live.

verdun47 · « **Reply #2 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 11:10 pm »

K Shep yes you are a hypocite - you recognise CJ could upgrade your unit, but besmirched all other modder's upgrades. If I downgrade many components in my car (for arguments sake) its performance will be worse. If I upgrade many components in my car its performance will be better. Its a recognized industry world wide. There are expert upgraders in the audio electronics field also - question is which one and what do they do.
I'm curious - which 2 websites that you refer to ?

K Shep · « **Reply #3 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 12:01 am »

Quote from: K Shep on 3 Dec 2009, 09:07 pm

In my mind that is different than a 3rd party mod company, forgive me, selling snake oil.

Quote from: lcrim on 3 Dec 2009, 10:04 pm

K shep:
The wholesale smearing of all 3rd party modders is a foolish generality. I would ask you to be more careful. Live and let live.

I beg your pardon you made the foolish generality. I said a mod company.

K Shep · « **Reply #4 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 12:11 am »

Quote from: verdun47 on 3 Dec 2009, 11:10 pm

yes you are a hypocite - you recognise CJ could upgrade your unit, but besmirched all other modder's upgrades.

Quote from: K Shep on 3 Dec 2009, 09:07 pm

I looked on the CJ website and the offer model upgrades and capacitor upgrades, not for my model, but the older gear.

First of all you gentlemen need to read my post. It sounds like the pair of you are modifier enthusiast. Why don't you share your story rather than throwing rocks?

I am intentionally not naming companies because I don't know all there is to know. I seriously considered a Modwright preamp and auditioned a unit before my current preamp fell in my lap.

BobM · « **Reply #5 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 01:32 pm »

Companies build to a price point. Sometimes they may offer "deluxe" versions that have better parts in them (but usually the same circuitry). So these companies recognize that a unit can be improved with boutique parts and have (hopefully) done the research to figure out which of the many different boutique parts sounds best in a given unit. Kudo's for them.

Mod companies provide a valuable service for units that have the potential to be better with boutique parts, but where a company doesn't offer a "deluxe" version. Hopefully they have done the research also (which is usually the case with one of their standard mods but may not be the case with one offs) to see which parts work best.

But it's all about tuning the sound, so one persons preference may not necessarily be the same as yours. So if you want to truly understand mods and boutique parts and such I suggest you pick up a soldering iron and get into it yourself. It's another aspect of this hobby that can be greatly rewarding and educational. Far more fun than swapping out wires or power cords for subtle changes.

I got into self modding about 10 years ago and it opened my eyes and turned this hobby into a completely different animal for me, and a better one at that.

Enjoy,
Bob

macrojack · « **Reply #6 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 02:38 pm »

The word "modify" does not mean improve. It only means change. Therefore, it is not implicitly certain that all modifications will be rewarding but I'm sure that BobM is on the right track with his comments because many of today's better designers started out modifying Hafler gear. Two names that come to mind are Jeff Rowland and Steve McCormick. Lately, Dan Wright provides a good example.
It's really a "buyer beware" situation because there is definitely no guarantee that you will get your money's worth. I find it strange that a group of people who constantly caution each other to "hear it in your own room before you buy it" will trust just anyone to modify that same gear as an act of blind faith.

rollo · « **Reply #7 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 02:55 pm »

Quote from: BobM on 4 Dec 2009, 01:32 pm

Companies build to a price point. Sometimes they may offer "deluxe" versions that have better parts in them (but usually the same circuitry). So these companies recognize that a unit can be improved with boutique parts and have (hopefully) done the research to figure out which of the many different boutique parts sounds best in a given unit. Kudo's for them.

Mod companies provide a valuable service for units that have the potential to be better with boutique parts, but where a company doesn't offer a "deluxe" version. Hopefully they have done the research also (which is usually the case with one of their standard mods but may not be the case with one offs) to see which parts work best.

But it's all about tuning the sound, so one persons preference may not necessarily be the same as yours. So if you want to truly understand mods and boutique parts and such I suggest you pick up a soldering iron and get into it yourself. It's another aspect of this hobby that can be greatly rewarding and educational. Far more fun than swapping out wires or power cords for subtle changes.

I got into self modding about 10 years ago and it opened my eyes and turned this hobby into a completely different animal for me, and a better one at that.

Enjoy,
Bob

I'll second that. Bob modified an Art DIO DAC for me. Sounded much beter and still making nice sound in anothers members system.
Agree with Macrojack as well, one never knows the sonic change wrought by the mod until its back in your system and may be a mistake. Me personally would need to hear a side by side comparison before the approval of such..

charles

K Shep · « **Reply #8 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 02:57 pm »

Quote from: macrojack on 4 Dec 2009, 02:38 pm

The word "modify" does not mean improve. It only means change.

And how does one compare what their CDP used to sound like to the new modified CDP one month later upon its return from the mod company. In other words, your audible memory is very short and psycho acoustics has an affect on how good the CDP truly sounds.

rollo · « **Reply #9 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 03:12 pm »

Quote from: K Shep on 4 Dec 2009, 02:57 pm

Quote from: macrojack on 4 Dec 2009, 02:38 pm
The word "modify" does not mean improve. It only means change.

And how does one compare what their CDP used to sound like to the new modified CDP one month later upon its return from the mod company. In other words, your audible memory is very short and psycho acoustics has an affect on how good the CDP truly sounds.

That is the problem you cannot. So its a gamble. If I was a Mod Co. I would have available a modded version to send out for audition.
This way a true evaluation can be had. I'll stand corrected but No one offers this option. Makes one wonder why.

charles

mcgsxr · « **Reply #10 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 03:35 pm »

Lots of valid perspectives here.

For me (best qualifier I can come up with!), it comes down to trust in a person/firm's ability to improve in a direction coherent with your own desires.

I own, and have owned, a number of pieces of gear modded by a particular person/firm. I started by buying a used unit, and liked it, so sent it in for further mods. Liked those, so worked with that individual/firm to upgrade another piece of gear. Later, when new technology emerged that interested me, and knowing that the trusted (for me) indivudual/firm worked on that kit, I sent that piece over (drop shipped new) and had it modded. Have subsequently had it modded again by same individual. Still using that same piece years later, it is at the heart of my system.

So, for me, it comes down to trust earned.

Not sure how it helps you with your considerations, but those are my comments about my own experience with one specific "modder" across 5+ pieces of gear, over the past 4-5 years.

Pez · « **Reply #11 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 04:27 pm »

It'll be a lot cheaper for you if I say this, so I will. Mods don't make a difference.

Just like dropping a few grand on high performance fuel injectors, high performance suspension, oversized air intake systems, superchargers, and NO2 system in your car won't make it run any faster or smoother.

woodsyi · « **Reply #12 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 04:54 pm »

You have to think about the cost of these company offered updates. Sometimes, it's cheaper to sell your MK1 and buy a used MK2 than sending your MK1 in for an upgrade to MK2. I would also look at ACT 2 in the used market and see if you get better bang for the buck moving up the chain rather then polishing your CT5.

macrojack · « **Reply #13 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 05:28 pm »

Woodsyi is right. As a rule, mods are passed along on the used market without proportionate increase in value. It might be better from an investment standpoint to sell the existing piece and buy an upgrade. This is going to be more true if you don't buy new in the first place. New gear depreciates maybe 50% depending on particulars, but mods are likely to depreciate as much as 100%. Pre-owned equipment, judiciously traded, can bring all of your investment back to your pocket upon replacement.

Truth be told, I think we have all been suckered by the high end audio industry. Vintage products and pro gear have repeatedly shown me that a high level of performance can be had without subscribing to the belief that new is better and that positively reviewed items excel.

Pez · « **Reply #14 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 05:48 pm »

Quote

Truth be told, I think we have all been suckered by the high end audio industry.

Oh lord, it was only a matter of time before the conspiracy theorist started cropping up. I do agree that to an extent we all have been "suckered" by the hifi industry, but only because we want to be. This is a choice people, if you want new equipment buy new equipment, if you want to be thrifty than be thrifty, and if you want to mod you gear... Well you get the idea, nobody is forcing your hand and certainly nobody is duping you into any of the above.

Kirk, try modding your gear with small and relatively inexpensive changes that you research to give good bang for your buck. If you like that then move to the next step. EVERYTHING including your CT5 can be improved upon by someone who knows what they're doing. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the most prudent change you can make to your system, but who's to say what is.

macrojack · « **Reply #15 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 06:04 pm »

Not all conspiracies are formed intentionally in smoky back rooms by people with bad intentions. It could well be argued that all the world's car manufacturers have conspired to make cars better by competing against one another.
The term "conspiracy theory" was itself the product of conspiracy. It was invented to provide an easy way to discredit anyone who attempts to shine a light on the shenanigans of conspirators.
Very clever, indeed, but it should be. Think tanks are well funded and well rewarded for their conspiracies.

Pez · « **Reply #16 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 06:18 pm »

Ahh so my saying that this is a ridiculous "conspiracy theory" automatically makes me a conspirator? That is a very convenient explanation to ridicule dissension that doesn't fit with your world view.

Or am I doing it unintentionally which still makes me a conspirator. Is anyone not a conspirator under that definition?

woodsyi · « **Reply #17 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 06:20 pm »

I wouldn't go as far as conspiracy. I would call it "marketing" meaning they are building up a product without equally substantive improvement. We just have to wade through these to know when advertising tracks actual performance. Used market is great in that you buy things after the market adjustment, but there will always be those who want to ride the first wave. I've been there too.

Pez · « **Reply #18 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 06:26 pm »

Who's to say what's a "Substantive improvement"? Are we to trust measurements? If so why are we still making new or improved equipment as most of it measures within 1-2% THD since 1970?

BobM · « **Reply #19 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 06:36 pm »

I think you are all making my point for me.

Get educated ... get informed ... get experience

Do your own mods.