[harryf]

Ok  i had a ton of problems the first go round.I bought a new board from jim.I tested everything like resistors and capacitor's.They are all ok and are ok after install.
I rebought all the other parts.
I installed them.I was super carefull not to over heat them.
So i am back where i started 2 weeks ago.
So here are my questions.
1) Would installing t 400 backwards and turning it on fry my hag dac?How do i test that it's not been the problem all along?
2)t 500's orentation is for tap's 1 and 3 pointing towardes the vol and selector switch?I checked this but i'm still worried it's a problem.
3) the 12 hz crystal does it have a orentation?It seems to me it might not but i'm not sure?I'm going to check the data sheet after this post.
Right now i have the usb installed but i had to cut it out of the old board so i'm not sure it's aok.
So i'm going to have to use s/pdif as that part is backordered untill dec 29.
I am useing windows vista i have it set to 16 44.1.
I also have it so aplications can take over.Is this right.
I have a playstation 1 i use a old one i get nothing on this too.
No sound.No switching sound nothing.I'm going to use a older hk cd player to check thing's out later,maybe i'm not getting the right sample rate.
Both led's start out green.I'm going to flip the led's as i think there orentated backwards.The manuel says they should start out red.
I think i need to see if the dac is dead first.I'm just not sure how.

[harryf]

I swaped the led's around and now i have a green power light and two red light's like i'm supposed to.
I measured the voltage off my ps 1 and found it's too high for the chime to lock on to.
So i'm back to vista and my laptop.I'm not sure if it is putting out 16 bit 44.1 k.It's supposed to but who knows.I need to research this further.
I'm wondering if i need to run foobar.
I'm wondering if my pc might be giveing the chime too much voltage too?
I measured internaly and am getting 8v where i need to and -8 v where i need to.
My 295 v readings are a little high at 347 v.The other 300 v reading also reads 347 v.
So i need to try this out with a dedicated cd player.I only have a dvd player here left to try with it.
I measured the rca's.The s/pdif out put gets nothing.|Except for one little spike.It reads 0 v.The output read's 0 v to but when i move the volume control to either limit i get a - 0 reading.
I sure hope i didn't burn out the hag dac.

There is one other problem i can see i didnt have a 47 pf cap but i had two 22 pf caps.So i parreled them.I have a 47 pf cap otw.I have a silver mica 47 pf cap but it read's 80 pf so i didn't ise it.Maybe that's the problem?

[harryf]

well it's been awhile since i built part of this unit and what i did was use 2 47 pf caps in series to try to make a 22 pf cap for c 501.
The thing is the cap i was sent reads .12 n on my cap reader but my cap reader starts out with .08 n with nothing on it.Which to me would mean the cap i have is 40 pf.But i'm not sure because My cap reader cant go to .02 n or to .04 n.So i wonder if the values's it's giveing my are right?
I could have a 22 pf cap in the 47 pf place and two 22 pf caps in series giveing me 11 pf?
Would this matter?
All i know is something not right and the caps digikey are sending me don't read right.But maybe it's the reader's fault?
These are right connected to the crystal i assume that those values are critical?

[dnewman]

well it's been awhile since i built part of this unit and what i did was use 2 47 pf caps in series to try to make a 22 pf cap for c 501.
The thing is the cap i was sent reads .12 n on my cap reader but my cap reader starts out with .08 n with nothing on it.Which to me would mean the cap i have is 40 pf.But i'm not sure because My cap reader cant go to .02 n or to .04 n.So i wonder if the values's it's giveing my are right?
I could have a 22 pf cap in the 47 pf place and two 22 pf caps in series giveing me 11 pf?
Would this matter?
All i know is something not right and the caps digikey are sending me don't read right.But maybe it's the reader's fault?
These are right connected to the crystal i assume that those values are critical?

If you are using probes with your capacitance meter, then those probes will have their own capacitance.  Also, if you are holding one or both leads of the capacitor or tips of the probes, then that will further throw the reading off.  This is why dedicated capacitance meters have built in "sockets" to accept the leads of the capacitor to be tested.

Keep in mind that the crystal and capacitor you are talking about are for the USB system.  They aren't for the HagDac daughter card itself.  So, it is not part of the system when testing S/PDIF inputs on the RCA jacks.  It's only part of the system when testing the USB input itself.

I myself don't use Windows and as such have no support to offer in that arena.

I've never seen a PS 1 outside of a store.  From what I can tell looking at specs for the PS 1, it did NOT have any digital audio output at all. The PS 2 and 3 apparently do, but they are TOSLINK (optical) and not co-axial (electrical).  So, I figure you're not going to be able to use your PS 1 to test your Chime.  So, if there's RCA jacks on the back of your PS 1, they are presumably analog audio outputs (as in left and right stereo channels).  While I doubt that they would fry the HagDac card, I certainly cannot recommend hooking them to it, eh?

As to testing the S/PDIF inputs, go to Target (or wherever) and buy an inexpensive CD player which has a S/PDIF digital output.  (I've seen them for under $20 in the past.)  You want it to be a co-axial digital output and not an optical digital output (TOSLINK).  The former uses and RCA jack, the latter a funny square female jack.

Finally, the orientation of the transformers.  Well, a step-down transformer is also a step-up transformer: just depends upon which side of the transformer you consider to be the output side.  Put differently, yes if you install T400 backwords you may well fry lots of stuff.  Installed backwards, it will step UP the voltage rather than step it down.  For example, one configuration of T400 steps 120VAC down to 10VAC. So in that usage, the winding ratio is 1:12. Installed backwards, you'd get 120VAC stepped up to 1440VAC.   That will most certainly fry the caps which aren't rated for that and likely other things too.  Since you're seeing +/- 8 VDC now, you now have T400 in correctly.  However, if the HagDac card was ever in when T400 was in backwards, then the HagDac card may well have taken some serious damage.  (Here's hoping that some cheaper part sacrificed itself to save the HagDac!)

From looking at Chime manual and the current Digikey spec sheet for 237-1048-ND, I believe that you wanted Pins 1-4 of the tran towards the back of the PCB (toward all those spades).  Pins 5-8 next to C414.

T500 is a 1:1 isolation/pulse transformer.  [Wrong: it's not 1:1.  See my later post where I correct this statement of mine.  -Dan, 4 Dec 2009] Doesn't matter which way you install it.  I had to carefully clip some of those leads on its top which connected the windings down to the through-hole leads.  That so as to not collide with C505, C507, and C508.

In installing parts around U500, make sure you didn't get any solder bridges on those fine pitched leads of U500.  If you did, you can fix it with a little solder braid. (SOP for hand soldering surface mount devices: you don't worry about bridges when installing and you fix 'em all with solder braid latter.)  As I mentioned before, if you can see your Chime as a USB device on your PC, then that section of the board is working.

Dan

[harryf]

Ok great post you answered almost every question many thanks!.So with my old board i got windows to recognise the chime in usb mode.Jim said that usb worked without the board.
So i assume my hag usb is ok but my socket is not.I will have to wait on that.
You said messing up t 400 could of sent 1440 v ouch! I hope your right.
So i can't check the 4700 uf cap's or the 10000 uf caps.My dvm's cap reader cant go over 100 uf.Do you think that might be the problem?
I did install new 4700'sI think but reused the 10000's but i bought both.maybe i should add those.
I will take a look at the schmatic as i'm not sure what those caps do.Heck i will add those parts just to be sure.
As for the s/pdif i don't have a target where i live but i do have a wall mart.
I have been useing the headphone output from my laptop with a adapter.
I'm guessing this is wrong?From the laptop it's usb or nothing?
Ahh if digital was as easy asvinyl lol!

[harryf]

One more question.The chime has a selector switch.It has 3 inputs?So the single rca jack i see in the manuel schematic for a stand alone hag dac is for one input.Not a stereo pair?lol!I was scratching my head today:)
So not only have i been feeding this unit a analog input i have been giveing it a pair lol!
I just figured that out when i took out my toshiba dvd player sd 4990.It has a single coaxial digital output.Just like the manuel calls for.
So tommorow i hook up the dvd player and try it.I think i remember if you set it to pcm audio you get 44.1.
You know i think i took apart and cut up my chime board and it was working...
Unless i did hurt the hag dac.But it does get recognised by windows.

[dnewman]

Ok great post you answered almost every question many thanks!.So with my old board i got windows to recognise the chime in usb mode.Jim said that usb worked without the board.

Yes, the USB section powers itself from the USB source (your computer).

You said messing up t 400 could of sent 1440 v ouch!

Yes, not a pleasant thought.  Same principle as how your garden variety neon sign power supply works.

So i can't check the 4700 uf cap's or the 10000 uf caps.My dvm's cap reader cant go over 100 uf.Do you think that might be the problem?

As regards getting significantly higher DC voltages?  That's all coming off of the exterior mounted transformer which, in turn, feeds the rectifier tube.  Seeing 347 VDC rather than 305 VDC doesn't alarm me too much.  However, I really wouldn't expect you to see the same voltage on both sides of those test points.  After all, R438  (L or R) should be dropping the voltage across its leads.....  I'd double check your readings.

As for the s/pdif i don't have a target where i live but i do have a wall mart.
I have been useing the headphone output from my laptop with a adapter.

That would be analog audio.  The Chime is designed to accept digital audio input.  So, feeding your laptop's headphone output into the Chime's inputs won't do you any good.  And, while you could in theory test the analog amplifier portion of your Chime by feeding it analog audio input at analog audio outputs of the HagDac card, there's a slight catch.  The amplifier section of the Chime is set up for very low level analog audio input.  It will have a gain which is generally too high for your laptop's analog audio output.  So, were you to do such a test, be sure to put the Chime's volume way down as well as the laptop's analog volume out (and disconnect the HagDac card just to be safe).

I'm guessing this is wrong?From the laptop it's usb or nothing?

Correct: using the headphone outputs is a no go.  It's either USB out of the laptop to the Chime's USB input, or USB out of the laptop to an external USB to S/PDIF converter (e.g., a Hag USB), and then the S/PDIF into one of the Chime's input RCA jacks.

Dan

[dnewman]

One more question.The chime has a selector switch.It has 3 inputs?So the single rca jack i see in the manuel schematic for a stand alone hag dac is for one input.Not a stereo pair?lol!I was scratching my head today:)

Correct.  The selector switch selects one of three inputs: input RCA jack #1, input RCA jack #2, or the PCM S/PDIF stream from the USB jack.  The HagDac card has only one input which is fed from the output of the selector switch.  While you see "IN+" and "IN-" on the HagDac card, the "IN-" is tied to ground.  Similarly, the RCA jacks have the outer part of the jack tied to ground.  The selector switch is just feeding the center pin of the selected RCA jack to the HagDac's "IN+".  In the case of the USB interface it's basically the same.  However, Jim very wisely put in that 1:1 pulse/isolation transformer.  It electrically isolates the Chime's circuitry from your laptop's circuitry.

In my office I have one of Transcendent Audio's "Grounded Grid" pre-amps with a mod to give it 30x gain instead of the usual 12x(?) gain. Inside it also has a HagDac card, a HagUSB, two co-axial digital inputs each with isolation transformers, plus (for the heck of it) two digital optical inputs.  Works great.  (And, I proved for myself that TOSLINK is lousy; nice for the electrical isolation I suppose, but seems to be 100% driven by marketing hype.)  .  This is more or less part of my "monitor" system as the pre-amp is very neutral -- the second order harmonics are quite subdued.  (Also good for listening to harpsichord music.)  But, for enjoyment listening I use my Chimes as I welcome their warmth.

So not only have i been feeding this unit a analog input i have been giveing it a pair lol!

And, I can assure you, quadrophonic input won't work either

I just figured that out when i took out my toshiba dvd player sd 4990.It has a single coaxial digital output.Just like the manuel calls for.
So tommorow i hook up the dvd player and try it.I think i remember if you set it to pcm audio you get 44.1.

Unless it has some up conversion, if you set it to PCM audio output AND you put in a vanilla audio CD, then it should indeed put out 44.1.  Don't try SCCD, DVD-Audio, an MP3 CD, etc.  Just a garden variety audio CD.  And, I seriously doubt that it would do any upconversion on a vanilla audio CD.  I've certainly never heard of a DVD player doing that.

You know i think i took apart and cut up my chime board and it was working...
Unless i did hurt the hag dac.But it does get recognised by windows.

The USB section is recognized by Windows -- the HagUSB.  That's not the HagDac.  But I'm hoping that the HagDac is okay.

Dan

[harryf]

Great posts very helpful! many thanks.I also hop i didn't wast 500 buck's!

[dnewman]

T500 is a 1:1 isolation/pulse transformer.  Doesn't matter which way you install it.

My mistake: T500 is 1:1.22 so it does have an orientation.  You won't fry anything putting it in backwards since the voltages and currents are very low.  However, the resultant S/PDIF signal may be enough outside of spec (voltage levels) that the HagDac won't work acceptably for the USB input.  See the spec sheet for the tran at Digikey.  There is an alignment dot on the top side of the tran according to the sheet.  That should line up with the dot on the silkscreen on the PCB.  From looking at the on-line Chime manual, that dot is towards the edge with the volume and selector switches.  It is not towards the edge with th e USB and other inputs.

Dan

[harryf]

Yeah that's the way i put t 500 in.I followed the traces but i still was not sure.
So i tried my dvd player set on pcm this morning.Nothing.
So i'm down to replaceing the 4700 uf caps and the 470 caps.They are low voltage but i'm getting the proper voltages?
I wonder why they would not blow first or u 400 and u 401?
I have part's comming in today and tommorow.So either that will fix it or i messed up the dac.
I was looking at the dac today and it seems there are a few parts between the powersupply and the first chips.Maybe one of them blew.I'm sure i could source those parts and replace them.
I'm wondering why the fuse blowing would not save my stuff.Or why so many parts rated lower than 1400 volt's would not of blown first.

[harryf]

I had the high 347 v readings because i mistakeny put a 12ax7 in the 12au7 spot.I have had this thing apart too many times to count and i must of swaped in the wrong tube at some point.

[dnewman]

I'm wondering why the fuse blowing would not save my stuff.Or why so many parts rated lower than 1400 volt's would not of blown first.

This is all speculation at this point.  If you had T400 in backwards and if it produced 1440 VAC, then that won't necessarily blow the fuse.  The fuse is triggered by too much current draw (amperage).  You could produce 10kV and not blow the fuse as long as you draw less than 1A through the fuse.  Now, if you wired something wrong such that, for instance, there was a short (or otherwise very low resistance) to ground, then the fuse will likely blow.  Or, and I remind you that this is merely speculation, if 1440 VAC was being produced and a capacitor rated for much less blew and created a short to ground, then the fuse would possibly sacrifice itself.

So if your fuse blew, it was likely one of two cases: something was simply wired wrong (e.g., one of the leads from the external transformer or the power inlet) and that nearly instantly did in the fuse.  Or, it was a delayed reaction in which one or more components first had to fail (e.g., experienced too high of voltage, electrolytic cap installed backwards), and after they failed, the fuse then blew.  In the former case, your fuse should have saved the components by blowing right away.  In the latter case, some components failed first and it was their failure which then triggerred the fuse into saving what remained.

If your HagDac card remains suspect, I'm sure you can mail it back to HagTech for a verification.  That is, I'm sure Jim can check to see if it functioning or not.

Dan

[harryf]

It poped right away.I found a problem with the dac.One of the caps had a broken connection as it had hit the front of the chassis.I fixed that no problem.I got some new parts in.Except for the 4700 uf's which will be in tommorow.
As for blowing fuses on every build that last step wireing the powerswitch a find confuseing.I went off my cornet 2 to guide me but i might of made a mistake.So maybe i got lucky.
I'm going to add the new stuff and try her out tommorow.
Thank you very much for the help.You have helped me tons!