Rega P5 vs. RegaP3-24 with PSU vs. KAB modded 1200 vs. $1000-$1500

gprro · « **on:** 1 Dec 2009, 08:59 am »

Whats up all! Deciding to really jump into vinyl. Been nosing around, and reading the forum and reviews, and trying to decide on a table. The two Regas and the KAB Technics have caught my attention.

Recently missed a couple decent looking deals on the GON. Wishing now, I think, that I would have jumped on the recent P5. Low hours-couple years old, with PSU for $995. The was also a new P3-24 with PSU for $950. I'm willing to spend around $800-$1000 cash, or get a MusicDirect card or equivalent and finance up to ~$1500. What to look for?

Musical tastes lean toward rock and classic rock/folk. Need the power, weight, and PRAT/dynamics for rock, with the audiophile attributes as well (mostly imaging/staging/depth, and air/detail), and the delicacy to pull off intimate vocals for things like Brandi Carlile or Tori Amos, but keep the natural body and tone as well. Too much to ask for?

Recent vinyl purchases are the three new Nirvana remasters, Neil Young Harvest, Brandi Carlile's last two, and Floyd's Dark Side. If they ever do the Beatles remasters on Vinyl...

Current system is a highly modded Jolida JD1000 Tube integrated, GR Research OB-7's, Modded Samsung Universal, couple of bad turntables-cheap sony, old not so good Garrard. Probably looking for a decent DAC as well soon. System is always in flux though. Looking at the new GR super V's and battery powered tube amps.

Given my taste in music and desired sound, what should I be looking at? Really wondering about the P3 with PSU vs the P5 without. The arm on the P5 looks much better. Then maybe a modded Technics. I realize I'm also getting into Scout territory...Any other tables in the range I should be on the look out for? Last question, how do you go about buying used TT's online? What to worry about?...

Thanks for reading! This is the sum of my brain on vinyl for the last month or so. Decided it was time to dump it a little. Decided to have a couple drinks tonight as well, so I hope I haven't rambled too much

I'm sure I'll be posting more in the vinyl section. Things like, what's up with Better Records and hot stampers? All though that might deserve it's own topic.

Thanks,
Giyan

2gumby2 · « **Reply #1 on:** 1 Dec 2009, 12:34 pm »

I can heartily recommend the KAB modified Technics. Mine has the Cardas tonearm rewire and strobe disabler. Although more than what you want to spend take a look at what Well Tempered Labs has to offer. They make some very nice belt drive turntables.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #2 on:** 1 Dec 2009, 02:50 pm »

Giyan,

The debate over tables and drive systems can go on for days at any vinylphool forum.....but we're pretty much agreed on one thing: to get the best out of the medium, your records need to be cleaned.

Ways to do it differ (most, but not all recommend record cleaning machines...but the fluids we use tend to stray all over the place), but leave some room in your budget AFTEr the turntable purchase to buy cleaning supplies. A machine and fluids can cost you as little as $200 (KAB's EV-1 cleaner requires you to provide your own vacuum...but there are savings to do so) up to well over $1000.00

My choice was only $150 (used) machine from ebay and $100.00 in various cleaning fluids that I have around. The difference in enjoyment between clean and filthy records is rather huge

Welcome to vinylphool status

John

bacobits1 · « **Reply #3 on:** 1 Dec 2009, 02:59 pm »

I was totally impressed with the P5 and TTPS when I got it (used).
I was considering the Technics coming off of a Basis 1400 I had for awhile.
Considered the VPI Scout but do not like the $$$$$ upgrade path.
I have had a lot of tables over the years.

D

Mister Pig · « **Reply #4 on:** 1 Dec 2009, 03:47 pm »

There is another thread out there with a similar type of question. I decided to steal the body of my reply, and add it to this one since it is relevant. Here we go.

If I had a kilobuck to spend on a turntable, I would strongly consider going to the pre-owned market. I think a well cared for VPI would offer the best bang for the buck. For the amount of money you have to spend, I think a VPI 19 MK 3 or 4 would be attainable. Those are mighty fine tables. I know VPI is kind of a ho hum choice for many a vinylophile, especially since its a common high end table. However, the company has been around forever, has an upgrade path, and sounds very good. After all people keep buying them and updating their tables.

Often the ones on Audiogon will come with a good quality arm. Such as an Audioquest PT 6, or if you were incredibly lucky a Eminent Technology II. If you need to add an arm, the Rega RB 250 and 300 are known to be a good match. There are several upgrades for these arms that are quite cost effective, and should keep you in your budget.

Now this leaves phono cartridge. If you are a savvy shopper, even the used market can yield a gem or two. For instance there in a low low low hour Audionote IQ II on the Audio Asylum classifieds for $100. Thats a screaming deal...if its still there. A watchful eye on Audiogon has shown a few moving magnet ClearAudio carts come up reasonably priced, at least one with a 0 hour rebuild from Soundsmith. I know many people are adverse to testing the used market on phono carts, but I have done it several times, and always had positive experiences. If I were shopping for new, I see that a dealer is closing out some ZYX carts on AudioXSell, so maybe you can find one there.

Patience is the key in shopping the online used market, and a quick decision when a bonifide deal presents itself.

For what its worth I have done exactly this. I bought a used Townshend Rock MK II in pristine condition. Found a new Moth RB 251 from a shop in Canada, goes by the Audiogon monikor of MrStereo. Then found a Hagerman Coronet 2 phono stage from a AC member. Finally, bought a 0 hour retipped Accuphase AC1 phono cartridge.(Waiting for that one to be delievered). The table and arm cost me no more than 750, but I added an Icognito rewire, and the Riggle Engineering VTAF and counterweight upgrades.

Regards
Mister Pig

lazydays · « **Reply #5 on:** 1 Dec 2009, 04:43 pm »

without a catalog right in front of me to see the exact cost, I can recommend the Marantz, and the Clear Audios. A Music Hall #7 is another good buy. But if I were wanting to speen $1000 I think I'be be looking for a good used VPI, or something on that level. You also might want to get on the SOTA website to see what they have (they sell rebuilt trade ins all the time)
gary

gprro · « **Reply #6 on:** 1 Dec 2009, 07:36 pm »

Good advice all around, thanks!

ChiarGuy, definitely agree on the cleaning, been reading the Fremer article on musicangle. Still reading more as well.

Lazydays, was also going to look at Sota's. Haven't read too much, so will research some more. The more I'm researching, the options list may get overwhelming

though I have been searching audigon for them and some Notinngham's.

Still on the P3, P5, and now VPI, and Technics... all good tables. What would be the complaints or the downside of these? I guess what I'm looking for is a comparison of a house sound or the sound of these particular tables vs. each other.

I remember reading something a while back about certain tables or set ups that may cause more record wear or damage. Anything to consider? Cartridge dependent, or something in the table?

Cartridges are a whole new story. For now I'm looking at some cheaper options, eventually maybe a soundsmith or shelter. As well as phono stages, all though I have become friendly with the Jolida folks. There's that cheap Musical Fidelity too.

If anyone see's something interesting, don't hesitate to post it up. Already enjoying my trip into Vinylphool land

Thanks!

TONEPUB · « **Reply #7 on:** 1 Dec 2009, 08:04 pm »

Rather than argue about which is best (and I own a P3-24, P9 and Sound HIFI modded SL-1200, so I like em both) My suggestion would be to start somewhere. Grab either one of these tables, decide on a cartridge to mate up with your setup and go from there. See what you like and don't like and perhaps try something else. Buying a good used table will eliminate you losing any money if you decide you just hate the Technics or the Rega.

The good news is they are both pretty good. Both can be tweeked for more performance, the Technics more than the Rega.

The bad news is you aren't going to get everything you want on your list for the money you want to spend. It all depends on how much you like to fiddle. If you don't want to fiddle, get a P3 with a Shelter 501 and call it a day. If you love to fiddle and feel comfortable, get a 1200, the sky's the limit.

You can't get "Money no object" performance out of a 1200, but you can improve it considerably. I'm not a terribly big fan of the KAB stuff, but it is a good intermediate step and more reasonably priced than the Sound HiFi mods.

However, the Sound HiFI mods with an SME 309 are very impressive.

Just depends on how much you want to spend and how much you want to fiddle. You can achieve great results with either.

TomS · « **Reply #8 on:** 1 Dec 2009, 08:15 pm »

Be sure to take a look at the Vista Audio phono stage for maximum bang for the buck too.

bacobits1 · « **Reply #9 on:** 1 Dec 2009, 08:42 pm »

gprro,

I see you Pm'd on that used Technics 1200 for $250.
That is a killer price for it. I looked at it too for a second deck.
Good Luck.

D

Wayner · « **Reply #10 on:** 1 Dec 2009, 08:45 pm »

Yes, great price. Ask him if he has the original carton and knows how to pack it for shipping (politely). Or you could end up like the ChairGuy with a smashed up arm (no offense to the seller intended), just make sure it's shipped properly. There are lots of tweaks, like TONEPUB said for this deck. At that price, you can't lose, unless it's f'd up.

Wayner

TONEPUB · « **Reply #11 on:** 1 Dec 2009, 09:56 pm »

Wayner is right on the money! Packing is CRITICAL... Original packing with another box and layer of foam to make sure. Can't be too careful with a turntable, even if you have to kick in a couple of extra bucks to make sure it's packed right.

Fed Ex and UPS are really grumpy these days about insurance claims if the box looks anywhere near intact.

Best of luck on the table! You'll have plenty of fun with it.

Uptown Audio · « **Reply #12 on:** 2 Dec 2009, 12:42 am »

Too much to cover in one thread for sure. The P5 is very nice and other than having the lighter plinth with the aluminum trim, it's the arm that makes the difference. It is cleaner and more dynamic sounding. Other parts and functions are the same. The arms really do make a difference and even the P2 has a better arm than the 1200.

Bang for buck would be the P3-24 with a better cartridge. You need three items, a cartridge, a turntable, and a phono stage. All of them are important. Perhaps in that order. If I had to skip the TT-PSU initially to get a better cartridge, I'd do that. It's a great upgrade to the table but nothing that I'd let stand in the way of a great cartridge.

The Dynavector cartridges are very good mates with the Rega arms and the 20x series would make for fantastic value. I have set-up many itterations of Rega tables and Dynavector cartridges with quite a variety of phono preamps also.

The JD1000 is going to smooth things out quite a bit, so I'd not align everything with the warm and fuzzy side like some have a tendency to do. Getting the front end to be very high resolution and as neutral as possible is a good starting block. These components will get you there.

The Jolida phono stage is quite nice and is very flexible. It isn't the last word in resolution or noise however but it does offer good value. It would not be a bad starting place. It is actually a solid state preamp with a tube buffered output. I'd not get caught-up in "upgrades" for it. You are far better off spending any extra cash towards a better preamp rather than putting lipstick on a fair one.
-Bill

gprro · « **Reply #13 on:** 2 Dec 2009, 08:26 am »

Excellent advice. Interesting thing on the Jolida with OK digital i found it too forward in the mid/upper mid with a little grain on the highs. Definitely not too smooth. Maybe the amp was just showing my players weakness..Although I did run it on 5K worth of front end at Jolida, and it was still a little hard in the treble on Dynnaudio esotar tweeters. Odd for a tube amp. Had the full Underwood mod package. Back at Jolida now swapping their custom caps for the multicaps and auracaps, and a couple other things. Checking some wiring etc. The response mods actually changed the circuit slightly.

I think the arm on the P5 is pulling me in. Looks more capable in the long run. A good isolation rack goes a long way I bet on the rega's. The Technics however at the price may be a temporary winner. Ship it to KAB for a couple mods and a check up, and for the money I bet it's good. Hoping it wasn't a DJ table at some point

Should find out more soon.

So as I'm narrowing questions down a little. Whats the down side on Scouts, or what are they known to lack? Not trying to insult the Scout, but curious to differences vs, say the P5 which is close in price.

gprro · « **Reply #14 on:** 2 Dec 2009, 08:38 am »

Uptown, just noticed you're in VA. I'm down in Raleigh. Wish it was a little closed to Richmond. I have to head to Baltimore in a few weeks to pick up my amp, and see some friends for vacation. That'd be a serious detour, haha.

And, I see you have some guitars too! I think my audio habit is putting off my search for a 63 Gretsch Tennesean

I'd be happy with a sweet sounding Tele and a Princeton reverb too

Uptown Audio · « **Reply #15 on:** 2 Dec 2009, 02:45 pm »

Yeah, tube amps can be bright too. The JD1000 should have serious bass without being too bright. It's funny how many times people are resorting to "undoing" the "mods" that they thought were going to make it so much better and paid extra for. Well OK, not so funny for those that paid for it. But from my perspective, it's just another "I told ya"... The best bet is to leave it Jolida as they have done the design work and the circuit is fine as is, plus the caps that some others put in there are just too darned bright sounding and it messes up the tonality of the amp. You go from fairly neutral and with great bass weight to a tighter and brighter sound that lacks the warmth. It's got plenty of power stock to be tight enough. The thing that'll help most is just a good pair of 12AX7s in the front of it.

The tonearm is important. That's one reason why the Rega tables are such good value, each one comes with a better tonearm and few other companies can come close to that level of quality at the same price points. Many just choose to use the Rega arms rather than contend with it. Most folks that I have talked to who have heard or owned both the Scout and the P5, have preferred the P5. Using the same cartridges, the complaint about the Scout is usually the lack of warmth or a feeling of the sound being more sterile. The Rega decks are not really on the warm side though and probably lean towards the brighter side of neutral with the wrong cartridge. So in that sense, the Scout is a really different sort of animal for VPI as their other tables are heavy and smooth sounding. Both tables are very quiet in operation and sound way better than many lesser designs. Some folks like the heavier construction of the Scout. You can always use a Rega arm on one if you want but there you go modding a limiting product again. Best to move on IMO as the upgrades are endless yet the value obtainable is not.

The 1200 is not something that I'd invest in as far as mods go. It'll get you through until you can buy a nicer table as it is, stock. That way, you'll not be wasting money on something you are going to replace anyway. The cost of the used 1200 and an arm to get it into the same league as the others would cost as much as a Rega table such as a new P2. I like the Rega sound better. So much so that it is one of the major influences that got me into Hi-Fi professionally. Tube amps were another thing

. I started out in my higher end hi-fi journey with Denon DD tables and once I found a British belt-driven table, I never looked back.

I do happen to have one of the best sounding Tele's that I have ever heard here.

I don't deserve it.

A lot of my customers drive here from as far as Raleigh or from the other direction, DC. One fellow in Raleigh has bought a Rega table, a tube amp, and a phono stage here. He has come back to get a cartridge and have it aligned as well. We did lunch on his last visit and he insisted on paying! Most everything was bought in person although I can ship many products too. Others have driven farther even, such as from South Carolina. I must be doing something right.

You are of course welcome to visit. I have four tables set-up on demo at the moment. I also travel to the Richmond area frequently. The best thing is to have a listen to some before you have your mind made up from web reviews. Send me a private email via my website if you want to talk about it.
-Bill

gprro · « **Reply #16 on:** 2 Dec 2009, 11:11 pm »

Looking like for a while I'll be using the 1200, unless something on the sale falls through. Haven't heard back a second time yet, but table is supposed to be mint, only used a few hours by the second and current owner. He decided not to jump into vinyl after all.

If I get it, I won't go mod crazy like the Sound Hifi mods. Curious how far they can take it with the arm swap and other things though. Probably send it to KAB for a look over and maybe the arm rewire and damper. Going to research those mods a little more.

May still spring for a P5 if I see a good one and compare.

Uptown, you have a cool looking shop. If I find myself in the area or with some extra time I'll have to make a visit. Right now it was either a vinyl setup or guitar stuff. I have a decent epi and the mid 80's UK made Marshall Lead12 and the two 10's mini stack with celestions in them. That and I can't really play

Just starting again. Really serious about it though. I don't deserve too good a set up...yet. That's the Tele on the site thats sold? Awesome looking! Kind of crazy haw the MIM strats and teles are gaining in value. Some of them do sound really good though. Not sure what to think of the crazy priced relics and NOS's some places are doing. They're cool looking, think I'd rather have the original. Man, I'm thread jacking my own thread

gprro · « **Reply #17 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 12:20 am »

New update, seller does not have packaging. What to do? Seller is within an hour of KAB, seeing if there's a way to get it there, then have KAB box it and send it after a check up and a couple mods.

bacobits1 · « **Reply #18 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 12:34 am »

That's great. That is what I would do.
The table is cheap enough.

D

The P5 is an excellent table too.
Of course I am biased.

Uptown Audio · « **Reply #19 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 12:41 am »

Thanks. No, the Telecaster that is still available here and that is pictured in this thread is a Fender USA Custom Shop model, a '51 Nocaster Relic. It has an original style Broadcaster bridge pickup in it that sounds amazing. The neck is really fat, you either like that or not. It takes some getting used to if you are used to thin profiles but is adaptable and gives it incredible sustain.

I'd skip the 1200. 2nd hand, no box, no guarantee, sight unseen, some guy somewhere else. It doesn't add-up to a probability of good outcome. It's best to buy tables in person or at least from a reputable source with the experience to get it there in one piece. I learned my lesson the hard way myself.
-Bill