Technics TT Manufacturing dead

richidoo · « **Reply #40 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 04:37 pm »

Wayner, what are the higher models that Technics will keep making when 1200 is gone?
Thanks
Rich

EDIT: A little research found this update:
http://www.inthemix.com.au/news/intl/45124/Confusion_reigns_over_the_future_of_Technics

rollo · « **Reply #41 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 05:00 pm »

Rich as always on the ball. We love ya.

charles

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #42 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 06:14 pm »

A couple years ago Chris Brady of Teres Audio visited us for a short spell upon introduction of his direct drive and rim drive models. Upon their introduction, the belt or thread drive options ceased...so much better sonics were realized with the direct and rim drive models.

I happen to like the VPI Classic belt drive table I have....near equally I like my JVC QL-Y66F direct drive. But, if I were to drop some substantial money (say, >USD$10,000) my money would go to a rim or direct drive. With enough money for precision parts, motors and the like...you can engineer out more bugaboo's from it than you can with belt drive models of similar cost.

I'm not very likely to shell out $10G's for a table anytime soon and I find my two today to be more than revealing enough with my room and hearing limitations

...but I'd more willingly spend on a direct or rim drive over a belt drive.

Here's the very informative discussion with Chris Brady that bears review for many. Essentially, it costs a bunch to get direct drive juuust right, but for a fraction of the cost the rim drive platform is nearly as good. Belt drive, no matter how much money is tossed at it has as it's weak link timing/speed issues due to the impreciseness of the drive system.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=40160.0

John

rollo · « **Reply #43 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 07:48 pm »

Go ahead tell that to my Linn LP12. PRAT personified you devil. Just need a belt every 6 months. Ivor loves me sucker that I am.
Was considering a KAB direct drive and chucking the Linn. What do you think?

charles

jsaliga · « **Reply #44 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 08:11 pm »

I'm more than a little surprised to see a thread (prematurely) lamenting the demise of a turntable that can be bought for about $500 to $600 turn into a discussion about decks that cost 20 to 40 times that. Are you kidding me? No wonder people are reluctant to wade into vinyl.

From where I sit choice is a good thing. And I think all the heady talk about big $$ turntables sends the wrong message to people standing on the outside looking in. There are far more people who can afford to spend $1,000 on a analog set up than there are folks with an extra $20K lying around burning a hole in their pocket. More people buying new vinyl is better for everyone who supports and enjoys analog sound.

And to those who are watching this thread and have reservations about the Technics SL1200 series because a few folks don't care for them: a great many people love them -- and not just DJs. They deliver good performance at an attractive price, so you don't have to take out a second mortgage on your house just to enjoy quality sound from vinyl records.

--Jerome

rcag_ils · « **Reply #45 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 09:55 pm »

Quote

And to those who are watching this thread and have reservations about the Technics SL1200 series because a few folks don't care for them: a great many people love them -- and not just DJs.

Where did this statistic come from? This thread is far from being a scientific poll. I am the only one here that don't care much for Technics turntables and their audio product, but that certainly doesn't represent only a few in the whole nation, or the whole world.

It's reasonable to say that the rule for a turntable is the simpler the better, it's also reasonable to say that the SL-1200 is very popular among DJ's for it's durability. Based only on my personal experience, I prefer belt drive more than direct drive due to belt drive's simplicity, and sonic superiority over the direct drive tables that I previously owned.

TONEPUB · « **Reply #46 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 10:04 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 3 Dec 2009, 06:14 pm

A couple years ago Chris Brady of Teres Audio visited us for a short spell upon introduction of his direct drive and rim drive models. Upon their introduction, the belt or thread drive options ceased...so much better sonics were realized with the direct and rim drive models.

I happen to like the VPI Classic belt drive table I have....near equally I like my JVC QL-Y66F direct drive. But, if I were to drop some substantial money (say, >USD$10,000) my money would go to a rim or direct drive. With enough money for precision parts, motors and the like...you can engineer out more bugaboo's from it than you can with belt drive models of similar cost.

I'm not very likely to shell out $10G's for a table anytime soon and I find my two today to be more than revealing enough with my room and hearing limitations ...but I'd more willingly spend on a direct or rim drive over a belt drive.

Here's the very informative discussion with Chris Brady that bears review for many. Essentially, it costs a bunch to get direct drive juuust right, but for a fraction of the cost the rim drive platform is nearly as good. Belt drive, no matter how much money is tossed at it has as it's weak link timing/speed issues due to the impreciseness of the drive system.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=40160.0

John

Dude, I hate to pound on you and you know I love my modded 1200 and you are highly responsible for that. But side by side on a great system, when you take the record off the SL-1200 and drop it on a Spiral Groove, SME or Raven (with the same cartridge on both tables) the difference is HUGE.

The 1200 is what it is. In stock form, no big deal but a solid workhorse, nothing wrong with that. Heck, I even tell my friends to buy them now! Modded, it has a lot more potential, but it's still No SME20. And I don't expect it to be.

Why does the thread always have to deteriorate like this?

Wayner · « **Reply #47 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 10:11 pm »

There are lots of Technics 1200 series tables out there in the world. I'd dare guess the number is in the high hundreds of thousands, if not even past the million mark. That certainly is a sign of a successful product, regardless of reluctance on the part of some audiophiles. The numbers are impressive. While that doesn't make it a great turntable, it does lend itself to the fact that there is a following, and it is huge. I'm sure it's the most sold turntable series in the history of the earth.

As Jerome mentioned, It's a fantastic bang for the buck table. You could spend hundreds, thousands and not get the percentage of improvement one would expect. There are things I don't like about the table, variable speed control is one of them. I want it to go 33.3333333333rmp or 45rmp,,,,period. Not plus or minus 8, whatever that means. I also don't like the supplied mat. I have made my own and like it better then the stock one. I have also done a few other things to it that have been mentioned on many other posts.

The SL-1200 series has also had many upgrades to it during it's life cycle that have refined it's performance a bit. KAB and others do quality mods to it for reasonable prices. You can darn near stick any cartridge in it and get decent performance out of it.

It's an easy table to recommend to a friend that wants to find out what vinyl is all about. I also have several belt drives that I love. My trick is that I don't put one VS the other. I accept them for what they are and appreciate their strengths and try to fortify their weaknesses.

Wayner

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #48 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 10:29 pm »

Quote from: TONEPUB on 3 Dec 2009, 10:04 pm

Dude, I hate to pound on you and you know I love my modded 1200 and you are highly responsible for that. But side by side on a great system, when you take the record off the SL-1200 and drop it on a Spiral Groove, SME or Raven (with the same cartridge on both tables) the difference is HUGE.

The 1200 is what it is. In stock form, no big deal but a solid workhorse, nothing wrong with that. Heck, I even tell my friends to buy them now! Modded, it has a lot more potential, but it's still No SME20. And I don't expect it to be.

Why does the thread always have to deteriorate like this?

Jeff - I don't see deterioration of this thread...just folks offering varied opinions.

I didn't say an SL-1200 compares to an SME, etc...what I said is that my current 2 tables, one belt and one direct drive, are sufficient for my needs/hearing/room limits, etc. But, if I was to be in the market for a table above $10K, I'd likely make it a direct (or rim/idler table), not belt.

I think at somewhere near that level of expenditure, you can cast sufficient precision parts and create a cog-free, near vibrationless motor...engineering the major bugaboo of a direct drive system away (that is, it is inherently attached to the motor itself and all the ills that come with it...rather than detached as belt drives are)

That's my choice - I'm entitled to it, no

Ciao, John

rcag_ils · « **Reply #49 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 10:33 pm »

I think it's fair to say that the SL-1200 is a people's turntable, like the VW Beetle is the people's car. While others passing it by, it just keep on turning the record reliably, and humbly. You could put it outside during Minnesota winter when the temp is at -20F, or in the hot summer desert of Iraq, and it's drive motor would still drive the platter, while other belt drive turntables' belt would turn brittle, melt, and break. You could hotrod the SL-1200 to the max, but it still wouldn't win the Indy 500.

Yes, a people's turntable, affordable for everyone.

Wayner · « **Reply #50 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 10:38 pm »

That's right. It's not a $28,000 SME. I wish I could have one of those, but I'm just a mere mortal. Anyway, sometimes you have to say good enough, even if the budget is holding one back. There are several "plasctic" tables out there that cost 2-3 times more that I'd rather not have, to replace my SL-1200.

Hamberger buget, puts hamberger on the table.
Lobster budget, we are going out to diner!

Wayner

TONEPUB · « **Reply #51 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 10:39 pm »

I like the "people's turntable" analogy....

And I agree about Wayner about the strengths and weaknesses. You aren't going to get it all for $600. Heck,
you aren't going to get it all for $6000. So find something you like that works well with your system...

Wayner · « **Reply #52 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 10:41 pm »

Quote from: richidoo on 3 Dec 2009, 04:37 pm

Wayner, what are the higher models that Technics will keep making when 1200 is gone?
Thanks
Rich

EDIT: A little research found this update:
http://www.inthemix.com.au/news/intl/45124/Confusion_reigns_over_the_future_of_Technics

Sorry Rich, I didn't see your post. I think they are going to do the low level SL1200MKII and the SL1210MKII and that will be it.

Wayner

timjthomas · « **Reply #53 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 10:55 pm »

How does the Technics compare to the Linn Sondek LP12?

jsaliga · « **Reply #54 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 11:34 pm »

I think some perspective is in order. No one, and I mean no one who has less than $1,000 to spend on a turntable is going to be thinking about an SME Model 10 or 20. I can see how that logic works, "Gee, I can scratch together about $800 for a deck so maybe I should give the $10K SME Model 10 a listen."

Similarly, someone looking to drop $10K to $20K on an analog setup certainly won't be considering a Technicls SL1200 and probably could care less how one sounds. So these are not the comparisons that people should be making here. Vaild and fair comparisons for the SL1200 would be to other decks in the sub $1,000 class.

It's almost as though people feel duty bound to declare anything affordable in home audio a POS knowing that there is something available for an arm and leg that will outperform it.

--Jerome

TONEPUB · « **Reply #55 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 11:50 pm »

Quote from: jsaliga on 3 Dec 2009, 11:34 pm

I think some perspective is in order. No one, and I mean no one who has less than $1,000 to spend on a turntable is going to be thinking about an SME Model 10 or 20. I can see how that logic works, "Gee, I can scratch together about $800 for a deck so maybe I should give the $10K SME Model 10 a listen." Similarly, someone looking to drop $10K to $20K on an analog setup certainly won't be considering a Technicls SL1200 and probably could care less how one sounds. So these are not the comparisons that people should be making here. Vaild and fair comparisons for the SL1200 would be to other decks in the sub $1,000 class.

It's almost as though people feel duty bound to declare anything affordable in home audio a POS knowing that there is something available for an arm and leg that will outperform it.

--Jerome

Actually, I think it's quite the opposite. I think the budget hifi guys always feel duty bound to complain that the best gear isn't as near as good as budget whatever.

I use three turntables as main references; The Spiral Groove SG-2 with Triplanar arm, A Raven Two with SME iV.Vi and 309 arms and an SL-1200 with Sound HiFi Mods and an SME 309 arm. I used to really pooh pooh the SL-1200 (as this was my first table over 30 years ago), but the enthusiasm here and on a few other forums prompted me to spend more time with the 1200.

I'm still not crazy about a stock 1200. Though it's more money, I'd personally rather have a Rega P3-24 (with Groovetracer Subplatter). However, with the Sound HiFi mods and an SME 309 arm, I'm really impressed with the 1200 and would place this combo that I've got about $1000 bucks cash tied up in (and would cost the average audiophile about $1800 with some careful shopping) against ANYTHING in the $2-3000 range. I think that speaks volumes about the basic engineering behind the 1200. And thanks to what I do for a living, I've had the chance to compare it to the Rega P5, P7, VPI Scout and Scoutmaster, some of the music hall line as well as the Pro-ject and Clearaudio tables in this range.

I enjoy my 1200 as much as my other tables, just for different reasons. With the current mods, it gets as much use on a daily as my other two, much more expensive tables do. And it's always fun to watch major hifi mfrs freak out when they lift the dust cover on my 1200 and see an SME arm there!

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #56 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 05:06 am »

Quote from: jsaliga on 3 Dec 2009, 11:34 pm

It's almost as though people feel duty bound to declare anything affordable in home audio a POS knowing that there is something available for an arm and leg that will outperform it.

--Jerome

Nope - not me, at least

My JVC cost me $450 or so on ebay...about what a gently used Technics SL-1200 Mk. II costs.

Not only is it fully automatic, but it plays better, overall (admission - the hollow innards needed filling first or the feedback issue was serious).

My Technics has $3000 worth of (used) table, (new) motor tweeks and (used) Origin Live Illustrious Mk. II arm on it....and it does not play as well as the $2500 (all new) VPI Classic.

So, not all budget gear performs the same level....and not all budget gear is inferior to higher priced spread. In this case, the Technics is outclassed by two decks that sell for less...despite all the doo-dads done to it.

For $200 or so I understand SoundHiFI in the UK will have an upgraded bearing for the venerable Technics that might help it quite a lot indeed. If I have time, I'd likely invest in it to go all the way and see how far the Technics can be taken

Let's everyone keep in mind the SL-1200 was NEVER Matsushita's top offering it the turntable heyday...it was a well-built, well isolated manual, direct drive built for DJ's that survived the digital 'pogrom' of the 90's.

It's the last table Matsushita offered...but, it never was the best.

John

rcag_ils · « **Reply #57 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 05:35 am »

Quote

My Technics has $3000 worth of (used) table, (new) motor tweeks and (used) Origin Live Illustrious Mk. II arm on it....and it does not play as well as the $2500 (all new) VPI Classic.

Keep in mind that if one spend more on a product than it's original cost, it's like putting lipstick on a pig. In this case, this SL-1200 is no longer a true Mitsushita product.

For $3000, I can think of quite a few well engineered belt drive turntables one can buy, new or used.

JackD201 · « **Reply #58 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 06:33 am »

rcag,

If the 1200 is a VW Beetle then the "Wiki Wiki" Geminis are Pintos. Geminis are belt drive. During the 80s and early nineties the market was flooded with lousy belt drives as is today. The EMT 950 and the SP10 are the pinnacles of DD tables. The latter on a well implemented plinth along with the EMT will give backgrounds as inky black as any belt drive out there at the same price. The sonic presentation is a matter of preference. Lack of noise however is something easily comparable by listening to a lead in groove.

What causes threads like this to degenerate is wild sweeping statements. Design and more importantly IMPLEMENTATION dictate whether a table is a good one or not. Proper maintenance is another factor. A dirty idler wheel, a dirty belt and an un-lubricated DD spindle bearing will all cause rumble.

Perhaps if you had owned a lousy belt drive like my first rack system Sony that even the SL-1300 bested, crap as it was, you're perspective might be broader. Clearly our 1300s were bad apples but there are a lot more in the DD bushel that shouldn't be thrown out because of them.

On a final note: Technics DENIES that they will stop production. I believe it is inevitable though. DJs have been migrating to digital and the tell tale sign is the online DJ record stores folding up one after another or migrating their offerings to .mp3 and .WAV downloads.

woodsyi · « **Reply #59 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 01:07 pm »

Quote from: JackD201 on 4 Dec 2009, 06:33 am

On a final note: Technics DENIES that they will stop production. I believe it is inevitable though. DJs have been migrating to digital and the tell tale sign is the online DJ record stores folding up one after another or migrating their offerings to .mp3 and .WAV downloads.

You can also see this on Craig's List as more and more DJ collections of hip-hop and dance records show up for sale.