[TONEPUB]

Hey, no one's come around to the SL-1200 more than I have.  I hope they continue to make at least one or two models.

Everything at the $500 level has compromises and while someone might prefer the presentation of a Rega P3, or something else belt driven, the SL-1200 really can't be beat for ease of use, multiple speed selection and ease of swapping cartridges.

And should you be a serious hobbyist who likes to tweak, you certainly can get a lot more performance out of the 1200.

I've done a fair share of the Sound Hifi mods to mine, added the SME 309 arm and now have a Lyra Dorian mounted.  This has really become my daily driver table and the go to when I come home with a stack of records from the local used record store.

It truly was the group of users on this forum and the SH forum that got me to seriously re-investigate the 1200 as an audiophile table.

[rcag_ils]

I bought a SL-1300 new with an AT cartridge for $185.00 at Team Electronics back in the late 70's, fall of 1977. I still can remember what the salesman looked like, a short guy with an afro and mustasch, looked kind of like one of the Hall and Oates guy.

 I thought that belt drive was out, and direct drive was in, fast pick up speed, accurate no drift speed, dotted platter, semi-auto, and whatever sale pitch that the salesman could think of.

I thought it sounded good. Then I discovered the belt drive turntables that made by the small British companies were more expensive. I listened to one of them, then I realize I had been listening to the SL-1300's motor noise all these time.

How does the SL-1200 hang on to it's popularity for two more decades? I think it's because the scratching "wicky" "wicky" DJs in the late 80's liked the durable motor in those SL-1200, they could play 12" rap singles and scratch them all day along with the SL-1200, and the SL-1200 just last, last, and last.

A bit stereotype, your say. Maybe so, but can you deny any of the above?

[Toka]

I've never used an SL-1300 (in this, or any, decade), but if you were to use an SL-1200 today you wouldn't hear any motor noise. Its actually quieter than many other 'tables, belt or otherwise.

[rcag_ils]

What kind of techniques did Technics use to isolate the motor from the platter in the SL-1200? There's no such thing as noiseless and vibrationless motor. With the platter sitting right on top of a noise generator, the result can't be good. This speed indicating neon light makes noise too.

When I was a young lad, I asked an hifi salesman who carried high end belt drive turntables a very dumb question. I asked," without the neon light and the dots on your turntables, how can you tell whether if the speed is  accurate?" The salesman gave me a simple answer, he said," you listen to it."

That's how audio hobbyists were misguided by the Japanese made direct drive turntables.

[low.pfile]

What kind of techniques did Technics use to isolate the motor from the platter in the SL-1200? There's no such thing as noiseless and vibrationless motor. With the platter sitting right on top of a noise generator, the result can't be good. This speed indicating neon light makes noise too.

When I was a young lad, I asked an hifi salesman who carried high end belt drive turntables a very dumb question. I asked," without the neon light and the dots on your turntables, how can you tell whether if the speed is  accurate?" The salesman gave me a simple answer, he said," you listen to it."

That's how audio hobbyists were misguided by the Japanese made direct drive turntables.

Nope, it's not vibrationless or noiseless, but it gets the job done very very well for vinyl discs of all conditions. Just add a Herbies mat and call it a day. Someone has to point out motor sound to me because it's never been heard on my 1200. I use Herbies and SDS Mat.

Listening right now and not a "zzzz", "brrrr", gzgzgz or hum to be heard--just a few ticks of the vinyl. And the wonderful sounds of Gotan Project and Love and Rockets of course.




some of those Dots.

enjoy your vinyl how ever you spin it!
ed

[rcag_ils]

Listening right now and not a "zzzz", "brrrr", gzgzgz or hum to be heard--just a few ticks of the vinyl. And the wonderful sounds of Gotan Project and Love and Rockets of course.

There isn't going to be any "motoring sound" like from a electric motor of a winch. Micro vibration and noise probably would make the music sounds more like in a tin can. The best way to find out is to compare your "direct drive" to a well made belt drive turntable.

[low.pfile]

There isn't going to be any "motoring sound" like from a electric motor of a winch. Micro vibration and noise probably would make the music sounds more like in a tin can. The best way to find out is to compare your "direct drive" to a well made belt drive turntable.

I was sorta kidding. I know the effects of motor vibration/microphonics, and I don't hear anything in quiet passages in my music collection. There maybe something there, but whatever it is is super minute, and the slight tube hum and ambient household sounds mask that. No sound proof room here. I've listened to it in 2 other systems and it sounded great there too. Sure it won't compete with a york or gyrodeck but it does lots of things right, for the money.

cheers, ed

[macrojack]

The electric motor in a Technics DD tale rotates at a very slow 33.333333rpm. So, no motor noise of any consequence. The problem that needed to be overcome is a phenomenon called cogging. As the drive is passed from pole to pole in the motor, there is a handoff that can be detected if the motor has too few poles. Technics (and others) overcame that problem by increasing the number of poles to the point where cogging is undetectable with instruments.

I replaced a Well-Tempered Reference belt drive table with a Technics SP-10 MK II. The WT is surely one of the quietest belt drive tables ever made ------ but the SP-10 is noticeably quieter.

Chris Brady of Teres Turntable took the belt drive table option to its maximum performance capability until he felt he had maxed out what could be achieved and then developed his own direct drive which by all accounts is far better than his finest belt model.

In the early 1980s there was a high profile feud between Ivar Tiefenbrun of Linn and Robert Becker of SOTA over their contrasting approaches to belt drive turntable design. This centered around the suspension of each and led the world away from direct drive tables altogether. This, most of us now realize, was a mistake propelled along by the magazine sellers and their imaginative reviewers. It really had no merit otherwise.

[twitch54]

Bite  me.

You need salt and pepper first !!! .....  aa

Sorry Wayner I couldn't resist !!

[Wayner]

Thanks Dave! How's the train driving business? So know as I understand it, the big panic is actually not the case. Technics is still going to make the low and high end models. I thought that they had too many models to begin with. I wish they would come out with the 1210 gold series again. I'd jump on that like a true vinyl slut. Slut, slut, slut.

Wayner, the Vinyl Slut.  aa

[rcag_ils]

The electric motor in a Technics DD tale rotates at a very slow 33.333333rpm. So, no motor noise of any consequence. The problem that needed to be overcome is a phenomenon called cogging. As the drive is passed from pole to pole in the motor, there is a handoff that can be detected if the motor has too few poles. Technics (and others) overcame that problem by increasing the number of poles to the point where cogging is undetectable with instruments.

If you really believe that mechnical noise can be eliminated by increasing more mechnical parts in low speed application.

There are still a lot of firm believers of direct drive out there in various blogs, mainly for the durability. They never talk about the sound of it.

[Wayner]

"Cogging" can be overcome by inertia. Most of the belt drive turntables have a synchronous motor that does the same thing. When that motor is has torque behind it, along with inertia, the cogging effect pretty much goes away.

Wayner

[rcag_ils]

I don't believe for a nanosecond that a motor is quieter than a rubber belt cogging or no cogging.

[macrojack]

I may have my terminology wrong but I would say that cogging is inertia and it can be overcome by momentum.

As for believing that a direct drive can be quieter than a belt, choose what you want to believe.
I was selling turntables back when this whole controversy was invented. I remember well what we were told to say and I can tell you that you are saying it.

In my case, disregarding all theory and belief, I can state from actual experience that a Technics SP-10 MK II is quieter than a Well-Tempered Reference Table. Neither can be heard operating but the Technics has a decidedly more recessed background and produces better dynamic contrast.

The Well-Tempered is very likely quieter than whatever belt drive you are using.

If you would like an expert opinion, get in touch with Teres. Chris has done very extensive research and drawn his conclusions from exhaustive comparisons of two turntables that are identical in every way except drive system.

There are a number of well healed and aggressively experimental audiophiles out there who have owned the most sought after and highly reviewed tables in the world and who, ultimately, found their way back to Direct Drive.

The world is not flat and belt-drive is not inherently superior - regardless of what you think makes sense. I held your same opinion and spoke as surely as you do until I found out otherwise.

[BobM]

Well, there's belts, and then there's belts. Rubber vs tape vs thread. Each has it's own properties and good and bad points, as does direct drive or rim drive, as does magnetic lev drive. I don't think there's a perfect answer, as does each manufacturer obviously. Which works best depends on a lot of factors. Obviously some TT's have achieved a good balance of the + and - issues around a particular method and sound damn good. Others may not be so fortunate.

I can say that I personally have tried the VPI rubber, vs tape vs string, and I have settled on string as giving me the best black background, dynamic and spacial presentation on my TT. I have not tried rim drive though, since it won't fit on my TT and I also don't know anyone who has one that I can try out in some fashion.

[rcag_ils]

My Technics SL-1300 from the 70's, and the Technics S*Q-30* whatever with P-mount arm from the early 80"s sucked. Both were praised by Julian Hirsch, and both are direct drive.

I am glad all my turntables now have belts.

[JackD201]

What kind of techniques did Technics use to isolate the motor from the platter in the SL-1200? There's no such thing as noiseless and vibrationless motor. With the platter sitting right on top of a noise generator, the result can't be good. This speed indicating neon light makes noise too.

When I was a young lad, I asked an hifi salesman who carried high end belt drive turntables a very dumb question. I asked," without the neon light and the dots on your turntables, how can you tell whether if the speed is  accurate?" The salesman gave me a simple answer, he said," you listen to it."

That's how audio hobbyists were misguided by the Japanese made direct drive turntables.

On the first note the lower half of the plinth of the 1200 family where the motor rests is made of a rubber compound material that wicks away low frequency vibration and directs it onto the pneumatic points. No other SL had this except what was to be known as the mark 1. Not even the SP-10 did. Furthermore the platters have been improved over the years. The M5G platter for example is lighter but you will notice a layer of damping composite and strategically placed holes that further reduce any possible ringing. Even the bushing material has been uprated.

On the second point, if the quartz lock is malfunctioning the way you can definitely tell is by listening to it unless of course you are tone deaf. Further a strobe and a test disc don't cost much these days and again if you are tone depth why should you care? The fix for the 1200/1210 family is cheap and easy and requires only a small philips screwdriver and minimal dexterity to swap out the pitch fader module. Much easier and less costly than line frequency regeneration for the majority of belt drive motors which are asynchronous.

My main turntable uses 3 microprocessor controlled DC motors and comparable torque to a rim or direct drive. Now before direct drives are ruled out altogether remember that the grand daddy of all transcription tables was the EMT 950. This is the Studer PR99 of turntables for professional use. This was a direct drive turntable.

I owned an SL-1300. It was crap. Even the arm was no where in comparison to the SL-1200/1210.

From my experience self noise being equal, the SL-1200 has greater resistance to acoustic feedback from say price competitors in the same bracket like the Goldring GR-1 and entry level projects. Yes even the P1. BY FAR. The skinny MDF plinths on these can't hold a candle to the cast metal and rubber plinths found in the SLs or competitors from Vestax and Stanton. The acoustic feedback leads to massive tonal horrors and even mistracking if set and placed on less than acceptable surfaces. Even the bakelite upper plinths of the classic Thorens 124s and EMT 930s and 970s will stomp the MDF on these and the cheap plastic and all metal plinths found on the other SLs.

Let no mistake be made about this. The continued refinement and acceptance of Belt drive over direct and rim drive was a function of cost and not technological superiority of energy transmission. If that was the case, every Harley would have a chain or direct axel drive instead of a rubber belt.

Not my opinion though. Just my observation via experience.

[macrojack]

My Technics SL-1300 from the 70's, and the Technics S*Q-30* whatever with P-mount arm from the early 80"s sucked. Both were praised by Julian Hirsch, and both are direct drive.

I am glad all my turntables now have belts.

Julian Hirsch? You have to be kidding. J.Gordon Holt feasted on that clown 30 odd years ago when he was bringing Stereophile to life.
Citing Hirsch makes you look very out of touch.

When every American family was standing in line to buy a stereo system in the 1970s, every Japanese manufacturer was creating cheaper and cheaper functional turntables. The champion during my tenure was the Technics SL-23 belt drive at about $129. We would throw in an AT cartridge with an $80 list price that cost us about $4. In that price range, direct drive tables were indeed inferior to belt drive because, as was pointed out above, belt was cheaper to build. Direct drive tables in that range were necessarily compromised and were sold against in order to facilitate fast closes. From this sprang an unfounded belief that belt was always better. Along came Linn, SOTA and VPI to propel that belief with some justification. But many statement tables have surfaced in the years since which utilize direct drive.
Let's just say that your conclusions are based on too small a sample of representative tables and too strong a belief in theoretical conclusions.

[rcag_ils]

Now before direct drives are ruled out altogether remember that the grand daddy of all transcription tables was the EMT 950. This is the Studer PR99 of turntables for professional use. This was a direct drive turntable.

Professional quality doesn't always mean sonic superiority. DJ turntables are all considered professional quality in a sense that they get up to speed fast, needs very little maintenance, durable, can handle lots of abuse, (DJ can use them for scratching all day long).

I am not familiar with all the SL-1200 family series, their construction, and years of refinement. I do know there's a reason for their existence over the SP-10 and all the rest of the direct drive. Mainly due to the popularity of the "wicky, wicky" DJs, and the die hard fans from the silver era.

Julian Hirsch? You have to be kidding. J.Gordon Holt feasted on that clown 30 odd years ago when he was bringing Stereophile to life.
Citing Hirsch makes you look very out of touch.

I cited Mr. Hirsch because he liked to recommend craps, he contributed to the popularity of the direct drive turntables and many other silver product in that era.

But many statement tables have surfaced in the years since which utilize direct drive.

What are the samples of those statement tables? What are their numbers comparing to the statement belt drive table?

[AudioSoul]

   If you put a stethascope on any  belt drive or DD TT you will hear motor noise. How much from either will vary from model to model of course. Back in the day a friend of mine brought over  his stethascope and put it on my Dual belt drive TT. When you turned it on there seemed to be no noise with the stethascope it sounded like a howling banshee. Thats why isolation is such a big deal in the TT business, both from internal and extenal sources. They have come a long way over the years though..........