Earl Geddes Nathan system

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poseidonsvoice

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Earl Geddes Nathan system
« on: 26 Nov 2009, 04:45 am »
Warning: For all those just lurking on this forum, be forewarned, this an overwhelmingly positive review of Earl Geddes' Nathan loudspeakers :banghead:. To get to the punchline, they are quite incredible and supersede most loudspeakers in the five figure speaker category that I have heard except for his top of the line Summas (which are only a four figure loudspeaker!). However, if you wanted a review from an audiophile who has listened to Earl's speakers in his best room and in a generic apartment, this is it.

Last weekend, 'goskers' graciously invited me over to his apartment to evaluate his Geddes system which is composed of a pair of Nathan's, 2 broadband subwoofers, and 1 ULF (Ultra Low Frequency) subwoofer for 3 hours of pure musical bliss. He recently moved from Illinois and I guess this is his way of making friends.  :lol:

Preamble

First a little background regarding both goskers and myself. My audiophile roller coaster started approximately 15 years ago while in college. My first system was, ahem, a Bose 201. That's right! Well, after about a month I took apart the speaker, noticed that there was a measly 1st order network composed of an electrolytic for the tweeter and my grey matter started spawning wild and imaginative diy creations. Thereafter my first 'high end' encounter was with Legacy Audio which was run by Bill Dudleston. He was my first introduction into the world of 'controlled directivity,' and after listening to his Whisper loudspeakers, I was completely hooked. Being a pauper as well as a college student, I didn't have $12K to spend on a pair of Whispers so I settled on a 2 way monitor called the Studio which used a no name Taiwanese tweeter and a Focal dual voice coil Kevlar woofer. I was in bliss for about 1 year. Then I was off to professional school, the Legacy system was sold to my best friend and I went into the grueling halls of medicine with a pair of Sennheiser HD580 headphones and a Headroom portable amp setup for about 4 years. I returned with great enthusiasm during residency (and finally a disposable income even though it was a pathetic $28K) and built myself a pair of North Creek Music Okara II's which I still use today. This is, once again, a 2 way monopole minimonitor using a Vifa P13WH woofer, a SS 9500 tweeter and was designed by George Short of NCMS. I knew I wanted more, but my wallet was always empty, and mega systems, well, cost mega dollars. Until now. In May of 2008, I took a trip to see Earl Geddes and was seduced by the Summas. My voracious appetite for narrow controlled directivity, high efficiency, and distributed subwoofers, has only grown since then. His designs are the real deal.

Enter goskers. Well, for a fella who just completed college recently, this guy has had some kick ass systems. Ellis 1801, Line sources similar to those designed by Selah Audio, multiway loudspeakers composed of Audio Technology midwoofers, Raven tweeters, TC Sounds subwoofers in U-frame enclosures, and finally the Linkwitz Orion++ with Thor subwoofers. My lord, I thought, this guy went through an entire buffet line of loudspeakers that most enthusiasts would in their lifetime.

What the hell am I doing with a pair of North Creek Okara's?  :duh:

On with the Show

Here are a few pictures to wet your appetites. Mind you, 'goskers' could've finished these Nathans, much, much better. Am I being mean and obtuse? No. Hell no. If you see his Linkwitz Orions, which are in a gorgeous Maroon paint with a Quilted maple front baffle, you'll know he is a skilled diy artisan:



This is his system when sitting in the sweet spot. There are a pair of Nathans, the ULF subwoofer (the blue Cannon) and a pair of BB subs as well.



The Nathan on the left with a BB sub.



And a Nathan on the right with the Cannon ULF sub.



The other broad band sub is on the side wall close to the couch we are sitting on.



That's the top of the 'Cannon' which shows how this sub is really between the floor and the ceiling as Earl Geddes recommends since the port is firing up.

And here are the pictures of his Orions with Thor subs, now long gone. Not bad for DIY right?:



The room is roughly 12 feet wide and about 25 feet deep (leading into the kitchen) with about an 8 foot ceiling, carpeted floor and  side walls made of drywall. No room treatment at all. The electronics by audiophile standards are again, pathetic. A Pioneer receiver, a Philips cd player, and this box that looks like it just returned from a war that 'goskers' says, is a balanced power transformer! And guess what, we even had a coffee table in between us and the speakers...sacrilege! If you read my Summa review, these two rooms are in stark contrast to one another.

Did the Nathan survive the harrowing room or lack of room treatment? Oh, most certainly.

We listened to several cd's. I will talk about a few of them in detail. The most amazing aspect of the Nathan's isn't the efficiency, it isn't the dynamics, it's the incredible depth of the soundstage. Everything is placed and carefully delineated in that soundstage much like a beautiful canvas. There is no shift in this stage, regardless of head position or even seated position. In fact, the shifts are very minimal and subtle. Music is rendered with such ease, as though the drivers are just loafing along without a care in the world. This is true when you are listening at a nominal 75-85 dB at the listening position but alas, how about at peaks of 100+ dB, does anything change? Yes, the only aspect that one could ridicule were room modal issues. Why? This is a completely untreated room, the antithesis to Geddes' room which I auditioned the Summas in! In fact, 'goskers' turned the subwoofers off, and guess what? The bass got boomier! The distributed bass technique works. In a treated room, it would work wonders.

We listened to Live Art by Bela Fleck. We listened for so long, I think we practically finished the first cd. This system renders bass guitar solos with such electricity, such vibrance and with minimal to no overhang, it shocked me more than the Summas only because gosker's entire system including receiver and cd player costs about $4K. It sounded, honestly, like $40K. The samba sequence first heard on 'Tell It Like It Is' on Traci Chapman's New Beginning cd was very, very live. Are you ready to dance baby? :bounce: Compared to other systems, there was silence around Traci's voice and thus rendered it with alarming accuracy and neutrality.

But before you throw my review into the sewer you should know that the Nathan system was extremely resolving of differences in recording venues and techniques. You were very aware of poorer recordings but not to the point of ejecting the cd in disgust. The sound staging was somewhat smaller, the details were more obscure and the dynamics were somewhat truncated. That is all.

Epilogue

You want bone crushing macro-dynamics - this system has it.
You want mind boggling micro-dynamics - this system has it.
You want bowling alley soundstage depth - this system has it.
You want focus, point source like imaging - this system has it.
You want speed, electricity, that jump factor - this system has it.
You want a system that is so simple and so inexpensive that it competes with the likes of similar transducers that are in at least the five figure dollar range - this is it.
You want it live - this is it. Nothing embellished and nothing tarnished, neutral and direct. It is amazing how good it sounds when the honest truth is portrayed.

Earl Geddes has uncovered a design that transcends the state of the art to the point that seemingly worthless electronics can provide such divine aural splendor. It probably will make the audio industry shudder for David has now met Goliath (I couldn't resist :lol:). And we all know how that story ends.

My Abbeys will be here by January 2010. Tune in then or just get plain jealous :icon_twisted:.

Anand.

lowtech

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Re: Earl Geddes Nathan system
« Reply #1 on: 26 Nov 2009, 04:59 am »
Hrm.  I thought Joel's line array project was scraped shortly after the planning stage.  His Orions sure are pretty but that room is entirely too small for such a high performance system.  Thanks for the interesting review.

Edit: Concealed Joel's true identity at the "request" of the OP.
« Last Edit: 26 Nov 2009, 08:52 pm by lowtech »

poseidonsvoice

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Re: Earl Geddes Nathan system
« Reply #2 on: 26 Nov 2009, 05:05 am »
Hrm.  I thought Joel's line array project was scraped shortly after the planning stage.  His Orions sure are pretty but that room is entirely too small for such a high performance system.  Thanks for the interesting review.

Those Orions were never in the room pictured. He had them in a different room back in Illinois. From my conversation with him, it sounds like he tried his best to optimize the Orions. Now he lives in North Carolina. I'll let goskers comment since he did back to back comparisons with the Orion and of course any comparisons regarding line arrays (whether built or not).

Anand.
« Last Edit: 17 Apr 2011, 01:37 am by poseidonsvoice »

goskers

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Re: Earl Geddes Nathan system
« Reply #3 on: 26 Nov 2009, 05:18 am »
Hrm.  I thought Joel Wasser's line array project was scraped shortly after the planning stage.  His Orions sure are pretty but that room is entirely too small for such a high performance system.  Thanks for the interesting review.

The orion's were never in the room pictured.  I also moved them to three different places, one being a room with almost identical dimensions of SL's room.

The line array's were finished to a rough state.  After messing with them for a couple of months in a room that was much too small I went a different route.  I have always had a goal of having a system which is simplistic that can excel at both music and HT.  This is the first solution that I have heard which meets those goals and is affordable to boot.  My days of messing with anything 'designed' by me are done.

gedlee

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Re: Earl Geddes Nathan system
« Reply #4 on: 26 Nov 2009, 05:21 am »
Warning: For all those just lurking on this forum, be forewarned, this an overwhelmingly positive review of Earl Geddes' Nathan loudspeakers :banghead:. To get to the punchline, they are quite incredible and supersede most loudspeakers in the five figure speaker category that I have heard
...
Anand.

Thanks Anand you are quite kind.

If someone who has spent their entire life researching audio and designing speakers can't come up with something of note then they weren't very capable in the first place and should have gone into nuclear physics like his professors told him to do.  :)

Hebrew Hammer

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Re: Earl Geddes Nathan system
« Reply #5 on: 26 Nov 2009, 05:27 am »
I miss you man!!!!!

Hrm.  I thought Joel Wasser's line array project was scraped shortly after the planning stage.  His Orions sure are pretty but that room is entirely too small for such a high performance system.  Thanks for the interesting review.

The orion's were never in the room pictured.  I also moved them to three different places, one being a room with almost identical dimensions of SL's room.

The line array's were finished to a rough state.  After messing with them for a couple of months in a room that was much too small I went a different route.  I have always had a goal of having a system which is simplistic that can excel at both music and HT.  This is the first solution that I have heard which is meets those goals and is affordable to boot.  My days of messing with anything 'designed' by me are done.

TRADERXFAN

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Re: Earl Geddes Nathan system
« Reply #6 on: 26 Nov 2009, 05:39 am »
Thanks for sharing your review Anand!  You made it an interesting read.

This is a new audiophile term for me though...
"You want bowling alley soundstage depth"
 :lol:

-Tony

2gumby2

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Re: Earl Geddes Nathan system
« Reply #7 on: 26 Nov 2009, 11:01 am »
I had the opportunity to hear Dr. Geddes' system at his home last year. We listened to rock concert DVDs at high volumes without any discomfort or fatigue. My wife is spoiled now and wants me to build a system just like his. Not happening now because our apartment is too small, but a worthy goal for the future.

turkey

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Re: Earl Geddes Nathan system
« Reply #8 on: 26 Nov 2009, 12:07 pm »
I had the opportunity to hear Dr. Geddes' system at his home last year. We listened to rock concert DVDs at high volumes without any discomfort or fatigue. My wife is spoiled now and wants me to build a system just like his. Not happening now because our apartment is too small, but a worthy goal for the future.

Could you start with perhaps a pair of Nathans and one subwoofer? Then when you move to a bigger place you could add a couple more subs.


goskers

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Re: Earl Geddes Nathan system
« Reply #9 on: 26 Nov 2009, 01:18 pm »
Dr. Geddes could speak better to this than I can but I would start with a pair of Nathan's and then purchase three small, el-cheapo subs until you get a larger place.

Spend your money where it matters.  Don't go overboard with your electronics, cables and sub quality.  If you want to redo all these items in the future then that is always an option.

sts9fan

Re: Earl Geddes Nathan system
« Reply #10 on: 26 Nov 2009, 03:47 pm »
Earl will say go straight to three subs.  In the real world that is not always possible.  I have one gr servo sub running with my Nathans.  Plus it's a powered sub with a crossover (gasp!!!).  Regardless if these transgressions I am extremely happy with my Nathans.  The detail and dynamics are fantastic.
Goskers: how tall are those stands?  Are you getting an elevated soundstage?  I found that I liked 18"-20" stands the best.

goskers

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Re: Earl Geddes Nathan system
« Reply #11 on: 26 Nov 2009, 05:55 pm »
My stands are 25.5" in height.  They place the small portion center portion between the WG and woofer at ear level for me on my couch.


sts9fan

Re: Earl Geddes Nathan system
« Reply #12 on: 26 Nov 2009, 09:49 pm »
Do you get an elevated sound stage?  I have the bottom 3rd of the waveguide at ear level and the sound stage is still slightly elevated.  Not a big issue at all.  They are still fantastic sounding.  My stands are only 20".

goskers

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Re: Earl Geddes Nathan system
« Reply #13 on: 26 Nov 2009, 11:40 pm »
 I certainly wouldn't call it an elevated sound stage.  It seems to be just right.  I haven't tried messing with different heights as this is what the designer recommended.

sts9fan

Re: Earl Geddes Nathan system
« Reply #14 on: 26 Nov 2009, 11:58 pm »
I am pretty sure he has actually changed that reccomendation based on user feedback.  I was just curious based on my experience.

poseidonsvoice

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Re: Earl Geddes Nathan system
« Reply #15 on: 27 Nov 2009, 12:02 am »
FWIW, the soundstage did seem a little elevated to me,however, I didn't mind at all. Recall that goskers is definitely taller than I am (5'10 inches versus goskers who is at least 6' something). I've set the stands for my Abbeys to place my ears just below the center of the waveguide but not quite in between woofer and the waveguide as goskers has. You are correct that Earl did modify this recommendation. Either way, because of a good vertical off axis response, the presentation should still be excellent.

Anand.

sts9fan

Re: Earl Geddes Nathan system
« Reply #16 on: 27 Nov 2009, 12:12 am »
Just to be clear this is not really a critisism!  I am a very happy Gedlee disciple.  Warts and all.

goskers

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Re: Earl Geddes Nathan system
« Reply #17 on: 27 Nov 2009, 12:23 am »
I am taller at 6'5" and prefer an elevated image versus one lower towards the floor.  I have found that an image below ear level makes me tired during a longer listening session. 

I will have to check on the updated recommendation and build some non-interim stands.

sts9fan

Re: Earl Geddes Nathan system
« Reply #18 on: 27 Nov 2009, 12:29 am »
I would agree a ss in the floor would be way worse.  That's unNatural.  Slightly elevated is at least not only plausable but most concerts I go see are up on a stage.
Can you give some details on the ulf sub?

DougSmith

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Re: Earl Geddes Nathan system
« Reply #19 on: 27 Nov 2009, 12:58 am »
Congrats, Goskers on your system.  I'm curious about that subwoofer as well.  Is it a bandpass with external port?  I played around with different heights for my Abbeys, and settled on 20" stands, which puts the waveguide centers ~2-6 inches above ear height, depending on how much I slouch. I find that the soundstage is vertically centered at the midpoint between the woofer and waveguide. 

Thanks, Anand for the compelling description.

- Doug