Should I make Longhorn modifications, and how much would you pay?

martyo · « **Reply #40 on:** 26 Nov 2009, 05:08 pm »

Quote from: rcag_ils on 26 Nov 2009, 04:29 pm

But I still have one question, will the longhorn sound better than the Ultra DAC, or the Ultra DAC will sound better than the longhorn with the right CD recording?

Depends on what cables you are using on your turntable.

JUST KIDDING GUYS

When I saw thew question I just had to.

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #41 on:** 26 Nov 2009, 05:31 pm »

Quote from: rcag_ils on 26 Nov 2009, 04:29 pm

But I still have one question, will the longhorn sound better than the Ultra DAC, or the Ultra DAC will sound better than the longhorn with the right CD recording?

I generally like listening to an LP more than a digital recording through an external DAC. I have some albums on LP that I also have on CD, and I can (sort of A-B, but not blind or compare scientifically in even the remotest way) compare them, and I always think that the vinyl sounds "better" because the timbre is better and the sound is more airy. Maybe better isn't the correct word. I think that the LP is more enjoyable. I don't listen to vinyl exclusively because there is 1) wear on stylus; 2) LPs need to be maintained; 3) digital tracks are more convenient; 4) LPs take up a lot of space; and 5) whatever else.

You have to decide which sounds better or more enjoyable to you. If you are searching for accuracy, there might be different aspects of either media that are more accurate than the other.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #42 on:** 26 Nov 2009, 07:13 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 26 Nov 2009, 12:49 pm

If I do go into production, it will be expected that each and every Longhorn be made the same, have a nice appearance and actually work. To do this, I will follow the recipe to the letter, or I wont make them at all.

Do as you wish, of course, but I think if you were to do a finite element analysis you would find that a closed tube would induce fewer stray resonances than an open channel - if nothing else, you won't get torsional modes from up-down motion. So an open channel is probably inferior to solve the original issue, albeit easier to make. It's not magic from a design standpoint, it's a straightforward way to increase the roll inertia of the system. I grant that diagnosing the original problem and thinking of it in the the first place was semi-magical, but the implementation of the idea is a trivial engineering problem.

All that is required is adding to the inertia in "roll" and ensuring adequate damping so you don't just create more underdamped oscillatory modes and not have anything rattling around loose. You want square tubing instead of round to make the glue joint more solid, otherwise, it doesn't matter.

BTW, using carbon fiber tubing with lead end weights would give an even better ratio of inertia to overall weight, to you can get more inertia for the same total weight or the same inertia for less total weight, since the radius of gyration would be larger.

Brett

Wayner · « **Reply #43 on:** 26 Nov 2009, 10:17 pm »

This is Frank's product, not mine. My mission, if things go well, is to be the next Longhorn builder. We need to get the product moving again, due to the increasing popularity of vinyl and Frank and I think there is a demand for this product. When we have more time, we may pursue other geometrical shapes and construction techniques, but for now, that is off the table and I must remind everyone that until other shapes and or materials become available and demonstrate a proven superiority, the design will not change, regardless of how simple some one else thinks a change can be made. As many here are engineers, the moral to the design story is always a series of design compromises. Sometimes it's cost, other times it's practicality, other times it's just plain trial and error or gut feel. We are moving forward to either doing it or not doing it.

Wayner

Wayner · « **Reply #44 on:** 1 Dec 2009, 10:31 pm »

The K and S #181 U-channel has arrived!!!!! This is at least a step in the right direction. Sorry, there will be no free samples. This stuff is like gold now.

Wayner

sueata1 · « **Reply #45 on:** 2 Dec 2009, 12:01 am »

How many ounces did ya buy Wayner,,,Golds @ $1200 oz,,,,Hope ya done good and bought that whole company

Happey listening,,,
Mel

Wayner · « **Reply #46 on:** 2 Dec 2009, 09:59 pm »

The Longhorn lives!!!!

As some of you may know, I'm a process guy. The old school teachings in the manufacturing arena was boiled down to this simple sentence: Things look and perform by the method(s) they were made. Sounds silly, but to that point, imagine making a nice audio rack using a hand saw and old world tools. Now a master woodmaker could do that, but in today's world, precision and speed are the only answer if you are in a manufacturing/pproduction mode.

Now the Longhorn bar offers some interesting challenges. Step one is to cut the bar to length. While this doesn't seem to present a problem, unless we do some good math, we are going to waste one piece. A 12" length of channel should yield 8 pieces. When you factor in material loss from the saw cut, the Longhorn can't be exactly 1.50" long.

Step 2 is the real interesting challenge and anyone that has built one know's this is 3/4 of the battle, that being, the notch. The notch has to have several interesting geometrical aspects to it, the first, being centered on the bar. The next issue is that it is the correct width, so as to produce a slightly interference fit, and 3rd, to be cut to the proper depth. Tooling of some type is in order here as the part is also very difficult to hold. My tooling vision is to have a block of stainless steel made that will have a trough in it to accept the correct Longhorn length, a notch feature to eliminate the centering, width and depth feature and a means to shine the little bugger up, so your Grado looks cool.

The 3rd element to the basic Longhorn is centered around the solder at the ends. I have made a jig for this and it seems to work rather well, tho I'm sure it could be improved. This allows for a fairly precise amount of solder to be applied at each end, giving the Longhorn beam balance.

This is fun, but will take more chicken scratching to get it to a production (repeatable) type performance.

One thing at a time.

Wayner aa

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #47 on:** 2 Dec 2009, 10:41 pm »

Wayner:

Very interesting. I have never seen a Longhorn.

cdorval1 · « **Reply #48 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 06:59 pm »

Wayner,

I have an almost-new Grado Blue. Provided I'm willing to risk damage or total loss, would you be willing to modify it?

Craig

Wayner · « **Reply #49 on:** 3 Dec 2009, 09:52 pm »

Craig,

This is where the big problem comes in. What would happen if I oopsed your stylus? Or fried your coils, or you didn't like the outcome? I can't undo the mod. This is an area that Frank (with his experience and infinite wisdom) wants to stay out of. The product has to come out of AVA, new.

However, we are having a company meeting this Saturday and maybe I will bring this topic up, with perhaps a twist to it. I'll keep that part to myself until Frank and company discuss the pros and cons of anything of any nature.

In the mean time, I have been making tooling today, but have not made a part from the tooling yet, nor have I done any measurements to a part made off the tooling. That will be tomorrows mission.

Wayner

avahifi · « **Reply #50 on:** 4 Dec 2009, 03:17 pm »

Just a quick primer on how the Longhorn bar works.

The cartridge sees a 45 degree "overturning" moment from the stylus grooves. This attempts to twist the cartridge. This is resisted by the cartridge structure, the tone arm structure and the tone arm bearings.

The Longhorn bar works like a tightrope walker's balance pole. It provides a higher polar moment of inertia to resist this high speed twisting input from the record grooves. This helps reduce the work load on the rest of the mechanical bits. The process is a bit of mass management too, to provide as much inertial mass as possible with the lowest possible increase in overall cartridge mass (about 1.5 grams total) to keep the cartridge within the limits of the adjustment capability of your tonearm. It will not work with some record clamps as there may be a phyical interference with the bar as the cartridge gets into the runout grooves. However the choice between clamp or weight and the Longhorn is a pretty easy decision to make.

The result can easily be tested in A-B listening tests. The Longhorn equipped cartridge will exhibit better dynamic range, better imaging and separation, and better transparency. Its pretty much a no brainer comparison.

Frank Van Alstine

defec · « **Reply #51 on:** 6 Dec 2009, 04:16 am »

Wayner, how about a longhorn kit with instructions that we could install ourselves? I've always wanted to hear a grado with my ava preamp. I have a AT 440 but it seems on the bright/analogical side to me. Maybe it's my setup.

rcag_ils · « **Reply #52 on:** 6 Dec 2009, 10:50 am »

It seems too tedious to build a longhorn by cutting small brass channel, solder, fill with clay and all that. I would source similar material, cut a small piece, and glue it onto the cartridge and be done with it.

A good idea in any case.

Listens2tubes · « **Reply #53 on:** 6 Dec 2009, 08:24 pm »

Here's mine from back in 2006. The LH gave this older speciman a new clarity that was more than expected. It was only topped by the Sonata at 10 times the original cost with 20 years of R&D/experience by the Grado company. I find it hard to fatham anyone not appreciating the effect of this Wonder-Bar.

Listens2tubes · « **Reply #54 on:** 6 Dec 2009, 08:28 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 2 Dec 2009, 09:59 pm

The Longhorn lives!!!!

That looks sweet! I like the rounded edges, a professional touch.

Wayner · « **Reply #55 on:** 6 Dec 2009, 08:39 pm »

We had a company meeting yesterday and the Longhorn was discussed along with other general issues. Snacks were provided and I especially liked the cheeze, ham and vegies. It was the first time I had ever met the whole group and it was lots of fun. I suspect we are going to do this more often. All I know is that I'm glad to be even a small part of the organization.

Wayner

Atom Shop · « **Reply #56 on:** 7 Dec 2009, 07:55 am »

Quote from: Art_Chicago on 24 Nov 2009, 05:19 am

There is an AR ES-1 on ebay now, so I was thinking

Sadly, Grado's and ES-1's do NOT get along. Serious hum issues.

Art_Chicago · « **Reply #57 on:** 7 Dec 2009, 03:59 pm »

Quote from: Atom Shop on 7 Dec 2009, 07:55 am

Quote from: Art_Chicago on 24 Nov 2009, 05:19 am

There is an AR ES-1 on ebay now, so I was thinking

Sadly, Grado's and ES-1's do NOT get along. Serious hum issues.

Thank you, I will keep it in mind!
Welcome to AC!

Wayner · « **Reply #58 on:** 7 Dec 2009, 05:44 pm »

Lots of turntable manufacturers perhaps did not do the best job at shielding stray magnetic fields from their choice of motors. I also used to blame cartridge manufacturers for this problem, but then I hear of tables that hum with many different makes and models of carts. This is a tough problem to solve, if it can be, short of moving the motor, the motor's power supply or whatever. DC motors with remote power supplies seem to be a great answer. AR used to use a great motor made by,,,,,,by,,,,,,Hayden. It was a 16 pole synchronous motor, shielded. Quiet as a mouse.

Wayner

rcag_ils · « **Reply #59 on:** 8 Dec 2009, 04:05 am »

Quote

You could even build up a database and sell bars with notches pre-cut out for different popular models, i.e. one for Grado, one for A-T, Ortofon, Stanton, etc.

Can you imagine the variation of bars that Wayner would have to make? I personally wouldn't want to do it. To make money from it, he would have to mass produce "one size fit all" bar, after he gets good at it, he could pump out one bar every 20 to 30 minutes. With limited supply of brass channel, he would run out of parts fast. If he wanted to do it just for the fun of it, and to help people out, that would be OK.

I wouldn't pay more than $25 for it. I have 10 turntables, if I had to pay $250 for all my cartridges, I'd rather make them myself. Not to mention it might cost me more than $250 depending on how much he would ask for. Or he could name it "the magic bar", get those brass channel gold plated, and charge audiophile cable price.