[aln]

I see that the Boulder company is offering power cord upgrades to AVA amps and pre-amps.  Comments?

[Tyson]

Well, it includes more than just a power cable swap, but some comments on the T7 w/some Bolder mods can be found here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=7204

[John B]

I'll be nice.   Glad to hear that a power cord mod helped improve the performance of the T7.   In general though, it amazes me that audio mfg's. don't offer these mod's themselves.   I've yet to read a review where upgrading the parts did not improve performance, and I knew that a better power cord would kick the T7 into a higher gear.   I understand trying to keep the price competitive on the stock unit, however if the gear you mfg. is showing significant improvements with others modding it, one would think a mfg. would investigate offering this in house.

[Tyson]

Actually, the parts quality used in the mods would cost signifigantly more if done at the initial manufacturing point.  Generally the parts quality you see in aftermarket mods are only "stock" for gear that costs multi-thousand dollars.  There's a reason for this.  

As long as you have a good design (and I'm convinced Frank is a genius designer), then you can use good parts to get better sound.  But an average or poor design will not be solved by throwing money at it.  The design is the cake, the upgraded parts are the icing

[John B]

Actually, the parts quality used in the mods would cost signifigantly more if done at the initial manufacturing point.

This I don't understand.   A part has a wholesale cost, tis usually the same price for anyone who want's them.   Why should it cost significantly more for Frank to buy them to use in his mfg. design than it would for Joe Mod guy to get those parts and modify Frank's gear, after market.   The fact that you've got two mfg. processes going on on a single item, along with the lost cost of the cheaper parts having to be thrown out in favor of the better ones...seems a waste to me; double the man power and materials to create one product.   Get it all done right from the get go makes much more sense to me.

[Tyson]

Because you can buy them after market one at a time, or in very small lots.  For a manufacturer, they have to buy in large quantities, which means a LOT of up-front expenses, which in turn translates to higher prices in order to recoup that very high initial investment.

The same applies to all manufacturers, not just electronics manufacturers.  Speakers are even worse for markup.

When you buy in lots of a thousand, the difference between a $1 part and a $20 part is the difference between $1000 and $20,000, which is huge.  Now multiply that by 20 or 30 key parts, and you can see the costs adding up very quikly.

For you or me, 20 parts at $20 a pop is just $400, but for a manufacturer w/a thousand pieces, thats $400,000.  I suppose if you were a manufacturer and had $400,000 just laying around you could invest it in the parts and wait for them to sell before recouping your investment.  I'm certain that most small/medium sized firms simply cannot afford to do that.

[John B]

Because you can buy them after market one at a time, or in very small lots. For a manufacturer, they have to buy in large quantities, which means a LOT of up-front expenses,

I'm Frank Van Alstine, a relatively small manufacturer of audio products.  I decide to offer an "advanced" electronics package which incorporates a bunch of black gates and other superior parts into this advanced line.   I've done my research and figure I can sell about 100 of the advanced line products.   I order enough parts to meet this production run.   These parts are not "break the bank" in cost, and will add about $1000 onto the cost of the gear.   Since he's not wasting initial money on the less capable parts he now can offer the end product at a lower price than the Joe Mod guy, who had to factor in the cost of double man hours, loss of cost of less capable parts, etc.    So, I still don't see where the manufacturer has to buy in larger quanitities.   You set up your line, determine how many you can afford to make and sell that year and you're done.   It's the same for Joe Mod guy.

[eico1]

new circuit boards would probably be needed to properly include all the differenct footprints for black gates, iecs etc. Then new schematics and other documentation. There are now twice as many of everything(including products to support and market). Could easily turn-off many who appreciate avas current ideas of a product line without a smellslikesnakemustbesnake bent.

Anyway, the first consideration to the 1000 units you are talking about is how many of those customers wouldn't buy something anyway?

steve

[Tyson]

I also wanted to be clear that Frank (to my knowledge) has only endorsed the changing out of the power cord, which I'm sure Bolder is happy to do.

The T7 I heard had a few other mods than just the power cord being changed, and those other mods may, or may not, void the warrantee (I'm guessing they probably do).  Just wanted to make this point clear.

[jackman]

I'm Frank Van Alstine, a relatively small manufacturer of audio products. I decide to offer an "advanced" electronics package which incorporates a bunch of black gates and other superior parts into this advanced line. I've done my research and figure I can sell about 100 of the advanced line products. I order enough parts to meet this production run. These parts are not "break the bank" in cost, and will add about $1000 onto the cost of the gear. Since he's not wasting initial money on the less capable parts he now can offer the end product at a lower price than the Joe Mod guy, who had to factor in the cost of double man hours, loss of cost of less capable parts, etc. So, I still don't see where the manufacturer has to buy in larger quanitities. You set up your line, determine how many you can afford to make and sell that year and you're done. It's the same for Joe Mod guy

John B.,
You seem to have all the answers.  Why not just open up your own audio gear company and see who buys your stuff?  You can use black gates and really nice enclosures and cryo'd wires, etc.  I'm sure you would be very successful.  

Seriously, it's no crime to have a guy like Wayne or Dan Wright make gear sound better.  THat's what they do best!  AVA provides a great format for these guys to work their magic.  Nothing wrong with that!  In the end, the consumer is the winner.

Jack

[John B]

Seriously, it's no crime to have a guy like Wayne or Dan Wright make gear sound better. THat's what they do best! AVA provides a great format for these guys to work their magic. Nothing wrong with that! In the end, the consumer is the winner.

I agree, I've had work done by Dan and it's great stuff.    However, were I to build my own audio gear, I don't think I'd want to look at my creations as platforms for others to make the magic happen on.   That would tell me, as the designer and builder, I'd put out a product that is sub par to what it was truly capable of if I'd used better parts.    With components from companies like Sony and Denon the after market mod'ing makes more sense.  You're talking mass produced gear, made for the average A/V consumer, turning it into audiophile quality gear.   With gear from small companies, especially ones like Frank's, who builds from scratch once the order is received, and whose target buyer is the audiophile, it would seem to make more design and economic sense to offer the mod at the source.

[avahifi]

The problem, John B., who's favorite brand of exotic parts and wires should we use in production?  No matter how expensive we made it, or which vendor of really good sounding parts and wires we use, most will still be complaining, "why didn't you make it with brand X parts instead of brand Z parts, everyone knows brand X is much better."  And of course, in three months, when the fad turns to brand Q parts, here we will be stuck with all those high priced brand Z parts nobody likes any more.

Of course another difficulity is that in general "wonderful audio" grade parts are huge!  Large bodies, making a tidy layout, short foil traces, short leads,  and low impedance circuits pretty impossible to design.  We are certainly not going to use polystyene parts, for example, in a tube unit, they are very heat sensitive (value changes with temperature) -- what temp are you going to run your system at?  Can we provide a link to your furnace thermostat to get it just right?

I wonder just how much lead inductance was added to the unit Bolder Sound redid and just what that really did to the pulse performance of the circuit?  What if all the audiophiles who liked that better were actually liking the effects of lots of underdamped oscillations caused by excessive lead inductance?  Did anybody do any measurements?  Of course not, that's no fun at all.

Can anyone actually supply me with any real engineering specifications for any audiophile part or cable -- more than "this sounds just wonderful!"?

Remember, the radios in U.S. army Hummers are made with all military grade parts, how come they sound so rotten?

Hey guys, its the engineering design that gives you the sound, not voodoo and snake oil.  Its just that voodoo and snake oil is so much more fun and easy to do.  Inverting 12 x 12 matrixs to solve circuit analysis problems is not all that much fun at all.

I will call it all BS until someone can demo to me positive results in a double blind test and show me the engineering data to prove that the new and wonderful is not actually worse.  This has never happened yet.

Frank Van Alstine

[avahifi]

The problem, John B., who's favorite brand of exotic parts and wires should we use in production?  No matter how expensive we made it, or which vendor of really good sounding parts and wires we use, most will still be complaining, "why didn't you make it with brand X parts instead of brand Z parts, everyone knows brand X is much better."  And of course, in three months, when the fad turns to brand Q parts, here we will be stuck with all those high priced brand Z parts nobody likes any more.

Of course another difficulity is that in general "wonderful audio" grade parts are huge!  Large bodies, making a tidy layout, short foil traces, short leads,  and low impedance circuits pretty impossible to design.  We are certainly not going to use polystyene parts, for example, in a tube unit, they are very heat sensitive (value changes with temperature) -- what temp are you going to run your system at?  Can we provide a link to your furnace thermostat to get it just right?

I wonder just how much lead inductance was added to the unit Bolder Sound redid and just what that really did to the pulse performance of the circuit?  What if all the audiophiles who liked that better were actually liking the effects of lots of underdamped oscillations caused by excessive lead inductance?  Did anybody do any measurements?  Of course not, that's no fun at all.

Can anyone actually supply me with any real engineering specifications for any audiophile part or cable -- more than "this sounds just wonderful!"?

Remember, the radios in U.S. army Hummers are made with all military grade parts, how come they sound so rotten?

Hey guys, its the engineering design that gives you the sound, not voodoo and snake oil.  Its just that voodoo and snake oil is so much more fun and easy to do.  Inverting 12 x 12 matrixs to solve circuit analysis problems is not all that much fun at all.

I will call it all BS until someone can demo to me positive results in a double blind test and show me the engineering data to prove that the new and wonderful is not actually worse.  This has never happened yet.

Frank Van Alstine

[nathanm]

There you go making sense again Frank, you oughtta cut that out!  Give the people what they want I say.  Take your existing cord that you ship with your products and dress it up a bit.  A block of mysery exotic wood in the center would not go awry.  Think iridescent flexo maybe.  Now offer this as an upgrade option and charge an extra, I dunno, let's say $2000 or so.  People will buy it, you'll have your upgraded cords everyone's always bitching about, and the armchair amp designers can all eat crow.  Everybody wins!

[John B]

Hey guys, its the engineering design that gives you the sound, not voodoo and snake oil. Its just that voodoo and snake oil is so much more fun and easy to do. Inverting 12 x 12 matrixs to solve circuit analysis problems is not all that much fun at all.

Frank,

My advice is to continue making the products as you believe they should be made.  We audiophiles are a notorius bunch for trying tweaks.  Whether what we hear is attributable to mind, matter or spiritual belief makes little difference...if I put a Sahuaro power cord on my gear and I consistantly here a "difference" I place value on, then that's it.   It does limit me to gear that has detachable power cords, but that's the way it goes.   I would love to hear what one of those cords on your gear sounds like, but I've had your stuff as is and it sounded pretty darn wonderful.   Mostly what I find attractive about what this power cord does has to do with bringing the music out from the speaker.  When I switch cords to stock the music literally recedes.   Why this is happening I don't know, what I do know is I'm closer to the music with the cords in.  

Do you think Black Gates and other quality parts that are used as replacement parts on stock gear by the Mod guys are snake oil?

[dvb]

But most of us have bought AVA equipment for its reputation of "sounding good for sound reasons".   We AVA-types are mostly suspicious of the snake oil you crave.  

So, please don't try to pee in our pool!   Or if you want to jazz up AVA equipment, send it off to Wayne at Bolder (just scroll down the Audiocircle page), and modify to the full extent your wallet desires.

(No disrespect meant to Wayne -- he's a great guy, and I love his Mensa DAC and basic digital cable)