[roymail]

I'm currently running an SS setup with a modded CDP --> stepped attenuator --> 50 watt/ch amp --> single driver speakers.  It's very revealing for better or worse.

I've been thinking of trying a tube preamp in front of the amp.  Could you guys tell me exactly what to expect and what are the audible differences between the two setups. 

If you use words like "smooth" or "tube bloom" or whatever, please explain what that means to you.  I really appreciate your help guys.  Hope I'm not a bother.  Thanks! 

[JimJ]

Can the CDP drive your amp cleanly to full volume?

If so, I'd probably just stick with what you have now, or maybe build a buffer like the Pass B1 to deal with impedance issues. No point in adding extra gain if you already have enough voltage now.

Now, if you had a bunch of sources, or different source levels...preamp time

[Big Red Machine]

Did that for years and it is a step in the right direction.  Many SS amps through here with tube preamps.  But now I'm a tube-tube guy and love the musicality.  I kick myself for not trying this sooner.  Solid state ---- yuck!

[Niteshade]

The stepped attenuator was a great choice!

A tube preamp could possibly bring out more detail. I like the sound of a tube pre with a solid state amp. It's a great combination.

[Wind Chaser]

It will "add" to the sum of what you currently have.  You may or may not like the difference.  If you have enough gain, you could go with a tube buffer instead.  Steve Deckert of Decware makes a decent one called the ZBOX.... http://www.decware.com/newsite/zbox.htm.  It adds a number of things including warmth, which makes the CD sound a little more like analogue, improves the imaging and increases the depth of field, and lowers the output impedance into your amp.

Tubes can be very nice and a lot of people like them, but any given tube product has to be judged according to its own merit. as some tube products aren't that great and can easily be trounced by some SS!

If you want to explore the difference tubes can make in your system, a buffer will be less costly than a preamp.

[roymail]

JimJ, that depends on the spl of the drivers...90lb down is a no go, 91lb up get progressively better in single driver config.  93lb up is plenty loud for me, and clean to the point of sterility which I guess is the point of this thread.

Big Red Machine, tube-tube is a big jump without having tried a tube line stage or some kind of tube pre first, but I'm willing to listen.

Niteshade, will an active line stage at any undesireable coloration?  What do you specifically recommend as a starting point?

Wind Chaser, thanks for that link to the ZBox.  Have you tried it or do you know about others who have?  On the surface sounds like something I might like, but I'd like to hear from others who use it.  What can you tell me about what active line stages add to the sound?

Thanks guys, maybe more will chime in on this topic.  I hope so.

[Wind Chaser]

I've used the ZBOX with an inexpensive DVD player with surprisingly good results.  I've only read good things about it, however there were a few reports of noise /hum on early units.

If you are considering an active line stage, what you get will depend on how much you spend.  A cheap pre (Tube / SS) will do more harm than good.

[roymail]

I've used the ZBOX with an inexpensive DVD player with surprisingly good results.  I've only read good things about it, however there were a few reports of noise /hum on early units.

If you are considering an active line stage, what you get will depend on how much you spend.  A cheap pre (Tube / SS) will do more harm than good.

If you had a choice between the ZBOX and a quality active line stage, which would you prefer?  The active line stage I've considered is a Mapletree 2A-SE which uses two 6SN7's.  Any thoughts?

[Wind Chaser]

That depends on how much you want to spend.  I've seen the ZBOX sell for as little as $200 used.  I have not heard the Mapletree but it supposed to be good.  But then again people say / said that about the Bottlehead Foreplay and I wasn't the least bit impressed with it.

[roymail]

Wind Chaser,  Does the Decware ZBOX act like a active line stage with a volume control?  I need to go back and read on the website.

[drphoto]

From what I gather, the the Zbox is a somewhat unique product. Most manufacturers of zero gain pre's, inc. the completely passive ones, promote that they give the purest transmission of the signal.  Decware seems to go against the grain and proudly claim the unit colors the signal to add some 'tubey goodness'.

Purely resistive passive attenuators are know to cause issues w/ loss of dynamics, especially at low volumes and impedance issues.

Autoformer passives are supposed to be much better. I've heard raves over the Sonic Euphoria, which is relatively inexpensive. I think the Bent's are a similar concept, but a lot more money.

The Mapletree and the EE Minmax seem to get the nod as serious bang for the buck active (w/ gain) pre's.  However, I've not heard any of the above mentioned units myself.

[Wind Chaser]

Wind Chaser,  Does the Decware ZBOX act like a active line stage with a volume control?  I need to go back and read on the website.

No, it's not active, but if you start tube rolling you will find that some tubes have more or less gain than others.  Mine came with a Ruby 12AU7, when I tried a 12AT7, there was considerably more gain. 

[Big Red Machine]

I've used the ZBOX with an inexpensive DVD player with surprisingly good results.  I've only read good things about it, however there were a few reports of noise /hum on early units.

If you are considering an active line stage, what you get will depend on how much you spend.  A cheap pre (Tube / SS) will do more harm than good.

If you had a choice between the ZBOX and a quality active line stage, which would you prefer?  The active line stage I've considered is a Mapletree 2A-SE which uses two 6SN7's.  Any thoughts?

What SS pre do you have now?  Perhaps we could trade for 2 weeks between Thanksgiving and Christmas.  I have a Mapletree 4SE I could let you test drive.

[Ericus Rex]

I've never listened to a passive pre in my system so I'm not sure how this comparison translates...if at all.  But between an SS pre and a tube pre this is what I hear GENERALLY SPEAKING.

From my experience, tube pres give each instrument more detail within the mix.  Groups sound more like the sum of individual instruments and less like one congealed whole.  Some people would  call this 'more air between the instruments'.  Speakers disappear more because of this and the sound becomes less direct and a bit more diffused (in a good way); more like a live performance.  This 'air' makes your imaging much better, if you're into that sort of thing.  The timbres of the instruments I find more 'palpable'.  You hear this term quite a bit among audiophiles.  It just means things sound more like real instruments and less like some synthetic recreation.  I find alot of SS pres have a metallic edge heard in vocal sibilants and cymbals and such that tube pres easily avoid.

There is alot of disagreement but I personally feel that you should always have a tubed pre regardless of what type of amplification you use.  Using tubes as voltage amplifiers (the way they're used in preamps) is a great way to experience some of the tube sound without dealing with some of the tube 'issues' the SS guys always bring up.

I say "DO IT!!!!"


oh and get a tube amp next   

[roymail]

drphoto said,
Purely resistive passive attenuators are know to cause issues w/ loss of dynamics, especially at low volumes and impedance issues.

Let me clarify.  My modded cdp outputs 1.8v which is a little less than the standard 2v.  Here is what sold me on the using a quality passive stepped attenuator.  I plugged my cdp straight into my amp, then put on some rather slow non-rowdy jazz to listen to.

The difference between my active SS preamp and my direct connection was simply stunning!  That evening I replayed every CD my speakers could tolerate.  No lack of dynamics and incredibly clarity.  The only downside I noticed, and still notice, is that poor recordings are unlistenable.

My passive attenuator was a DACT CT2 10K made by Danish Audio and is still available through diycable.com.  I later had it integrated into another amp which I later sold.  So now I have a Goldpoint MiniV 20K which is the same level of quality.  It's used in the Goldpoint SA1.

As in every setup, much depends upon synergy.  Every link of the chain is very important and contributes, for better or worse, to the outcome.

Now let me add, this sound can be so brutally honest and sterile that things like musical texture are not always apparent.  Ericus Rex put it this way... the sound becomes less direct and a bit more diffused (in a good way); more like a live performance.  I'm just not sure that I'm getting that experience with my present setup.

I guess the only way to know is to try using an active line stage tube pre.  I really appreciate all the help from your guys.

[roymail]

Big Red Machine said,
What SS pre do you have now?  Perhaps we could trade for 2 weeks between Thanksgiving and Christmas.  I have a Mapletree 4SE I could let you test drive.

Thanks for the offer but I don't own an SS preamp at the moment.  I simply use my diy passive stepped attenuator as described above.  I've read that the Mapletree is a very nice tube line stage.

[roymail]

From my experience, tube pres give each instrument more detail within the mix.  Groups sound more like the sum of individual instruments and less like one congealed whole.  Some people would  call this 'more air between the instruments'.  Speakers disappear more because of this and the sound becomes less direct and a bit more diffused (in a good way); more like a live performance.  This 'air' makes your imaging much better, if you're into that sort of thing.  The timbres of the instruments I find more 'palpable'.  You hear this term quite a bit among audiophiles.  It just means things sound more like real instruments and less like some synthetic recreation.  I find alot of SS pres have a metallic edge heard in vocal sibilants and cymbals and such that tube pres easily avoid.

Thanks for taking the time to describe what you hear as the differences.  That's what I was looking for.  I have read similar comments from others which is why I'm looking into this.  I believe I understand exactly what you're describing.

[Ericus Rex]

Glad to help!   

[chadh]

I've used the ZBOX with an inexpensive DVD player with surprisingly good results.  I've only read good things about it, however there were a few reports of noise /hum on early units.

If you are considering an active line stage, what you get will depend on how much you spend.  A cheap pre (Tube / SS) will do more harm than good.

If you had a choice between the ZBOX and a quality active line stage, which would you prefer?  The active line stage I've considered is a Mapletree 2A-SE which uses two 6SN7's.  Any thoughts?

What SS pre do you have now?  Perhaps we could trade for 2 weeks between Thanksgiving and Christmas.  I have a Mapletree 4SE I could let you test drive.

Pete,

I had no idea you were using a Mapletree pre these days.  Why does nobody tell me these things?

Maybe over the holiday period sometime we could get together and compare tubed pre-amps.  I keep wondering whether the Mapletree pre would be a significant step up for me.

Chad