[Niteshade]

I thought this circle was a good place to plant such a question. People's perceptions of items seem to work like this: The more intricate it looks, the better it is, the more it should cost. Would that be a fair assumption?

My grandfather used to tell me about how radio manufacturers would add tubes to a circuit to make the radios sell better. The tubes didn't always enhance the radio's functional ability. I see this in some modern equipment where something is overbuilt in an area where it's totally unnecessary. )I.E. a 100 watt power supply to provide 10 watts of power.  Giant TO-220 style transistors on multi-colored heat sinks where a T0-92 based transistor should be. The list goes on. Over designing is a great practice if it is justified.

[Wayner]

It is nice to have a quality cabinet or case for the electronics, to enhance the appearance, but also make the enclosure safe, and in many cases, tamper-proof. As far as adding components that add nothing to the music quality, that is just plain shameful.

Wayner

[mjosef]

I don't buy that argument.
For instance I have heard the virtue(?) digital amp with its basic power supply, which according to the spec. sheet is 'good enough' for the amp's requirements. Then I heard the same amp being powered by a much bigger power supply, and it was so much better. Who decides what's "justified"?

Sure looks do sell. The "better" looking stuff will appear to be the 'better made' stuff, and may command a higher price.
In the end many audiophiles, tend to go by word of mouth, regardless of the cosmetic glitz.

[Quiet Earth]

My perception of quality has more to do with fit and finish rather than intricacy. If it happens to be intricate, then it must be tastefully put together to have a high degree of perceived quality. Otherwise, it just looks like more stuff.

That's a tall order, isn't it?

[srb]

Yes, if it's basic enough to look like it came out of my basement shop.
 
If I buy a component, it will probably need to look somewhat better than what I would produce with a project box and an electric drill.
 
Steve

[Niteshade]

We know some things that cannot be argued with:

1. Component count has nothing to do with performance. Parts have to be justified to be installed.
2. Fit and finish externally have nothing to do with fit & finish internally (opposite is true too)
3. Equipment can sound excellent if it's made poorly, unfortunately.
4. Appearance should mirror performance. As a marketing ploy, appearance often trumps performance.

I have been to ritzy restaurants that ask astronomical prices and serve something worse than some TV dinners I've had. There are 'holes in the wall' that serve gourmet food for snack prices.

We'd all like to see some kind of balance between aesthetics and performance. Unfortunately that is not how it works all the time. It depends on  the designers' values.

 

[Niteshade]

I think in your case the extra power is beneficial. The amp has a high peak output and demands more power at lower impedances. The manufacturer would have more to say about this.

I don't buy that argument.
For instance I have heard the virtue(?) digital amp with its basic power supply, which according to the spec. sheet is 'good enough' for the amp's requirements. Then I heard the same amp being powered by a much bigger power supply, and it was so much better. Who decides what's "justified"?

[JoshK]

I think in your case the extra power is beneficial. The amp has a high peak output and demands more power at lower impedances. The manufacturer would have more to say about this.

I don't buy that argument.
For instance I have heard the virtue(?) digital amp with its basic power supply, which according to the spec. sheet is 'good enough' for the amp's requirements. Then I heard the same amp being powered by a much bigger power supply, and it was so much better. Who decides what's "justified"?

But the output impedance of the PSU is altered as well in this example.  How do you determine what is the reason?

[Niteshade]

Oops- I might have been wrong. The spec's don't say what the power output is at 8 ohms.  I thought it would draw more current with a 4 ohm load vs. an 8 ohm load. This is a good one for the manufacturer.

[Kevin Haskins]

Appearance is often a reflection of how a company feels about the entire product.   For things I know nothing about, I often find myself looking at how it is built and if it is well-executed, I figure that the rest of the thing is too.    That is sometimes true, and sometimes not.

When I'm designing a transducer, I often spend money on things that add nothing to the performance, but have a higher "quality" feel.   Example... I'm have a tweeter that we could use a plastic faceplate, or a machined aluminum one.   The aluminum version adds $2-$3 per item and the performance is no different than plastic.    I spend the extra money for the machined aluminum simply because it gives the product a higher quality feel.   When you hold the thing in your hands, it looks and feels more expensive than the plastic one.    For me... that is money well spent and I'll spend $3 extra, and charge $10 extra for it.     

[*Scotty*]

It has been my experience that people would like to pay X amount for a product that looks like they paid 5X for it. I think most purchasers of audio gear buy with their eyes and not with their ears. When I was selling audio gear thirty years ago this was the case. If the customer appeared to be receptive to my suggestions I would try to get them to close their eyes while listening to the equipment they were interested in. Frequently they would get "it" and would appreciate how the music sounded through the gear in addition to its appearance. Admittedly it was lot easier to just sell them what ever they thought they wanted and not bother to try to educate them. 
As far as the Virtue amp is concerned it has been built to a price point and the supplies that it comes with should allow it to meet the specifications claimed for it by the manufacturer, when larger supplies are used the voltage supplied to the unit is higher and the amplifiers output rises as well. In addition to higher power output the larger supply will also have a lower dynamic impedance which will greatly improve how the amplifier sounds. Anecdotal evidence seems to support the theory that the quality of the supply is one of the limiting factors governing the Virtue amplifiers performance.  Finally I have noticed that frequently manufacturers substitute added features that do nothing and a slick looking industrial design for superior engineering inside the product just as though they were following the old hot-rodders approach to performance "if it doesn't go fast chrome it."
  Scotty 

[richidoo]

There's a basic level of decent appearance that must be met in order to remain in the house. Just like TVs have bezel finish and toasters are chrome plated, permanent fixtures in the house have to have some reasonable finish. A coat of paint, contact paper, veneer that's fine. Solid carved aluminum like dCS Puccini is not necessary. Raw aluminum amp chassis from Par metal is not finished enough. A coat of textured black paint and color anodized face plate would make a big difference. Jaguar metallic wet sanded PPG urethane is not necessary on a value product.  It would look too fancy in my house. haha
No doubt people buy on looks, but I prefer most of the money put into the sound quality, and bare minimum to survive in my wife's living room be devoted to appearance. She is not too picky, anymore...

[Niteshade]

Thanks for all the responses! 

I like the idea of a balanced appearance/performance look. Purchasing on looks alone is a very bad idea. However, I agree that if it looks poor on the outside that does warrant suspicion about how it was wired and how it sounds.

What if it looks like a jewelry box? This clich? come to mind: "Robbing Peter to pay Paul."   Hey- if it has to sell for $1,000 and the customizations cost $250.00, something has to give! Due to eye candy selling so well, the parts that will be compromised will be internal. You can count on it. On the other hand, if nothing is compromised, the selling price must be $1250.00. 

[JimJ]

I can't say I don't care about aesthetics, but unfinished aluminum is fine by me. I'm single, so I don't have anyone telling me what I can and can't have in my listening room

[turkey]

I thought this circle was a good place to plant such a question. People's perceptions of items seem to work like this: The more intricate it looks, the better it is, the more it should cost. Would that be a fair assumption?

I would rather have an amp in a Bud box that was designed by a superb engineer than an amp in the fanciest chassis if the circuitry was designed by a hack.

Fit and finish may add to the satisfaction of owning a product too, but for stereo equipment I'm trying to get the best sound and I'm not worrying about eye candy.

[low.pfile]

If I had to buy objects purely on aesthetics, I'd be chasing my tail all day. Why? Being an industrial designer, I have my ideal solution for a product and want to find something along that line. I've given up on meeting my aesthetic criteria on components, but it did(does) have more influence on my speaker decisions.

We were just having a discussion at work yesterday that a customer in a certain geo thought the size of logo conveyed less quality. My own opinion on that is the exact inverse.

Material quality, fit and finish, overall design harmony is a difficult thing to nail and satisfy all customers. Of course all of that and more meeting performance and cost criteria.

Since this is the Cheap and Cheerful HiFi forum, I will say that overall consumer audio gear(low to mid-fi level) has made leaps and bounds in aesthetics in the last 10 years. This improvement has paralleled the growth in the industrial design field and the public's (American) increased acknowledgment of design-Europe and Asia has been "with it" for decades. Conversely, higher end audio gear does not benefit from the volume production of consumer goods, it's more common for them(high end) to be limited to off-the-shelf enclosures, switches and indicators and/or minimal tooling expenses. This usually drives them to just adding chrome/brass bits, and/or elaborate logos as perceived visual improvements/differentiators-which in my opinion, lessen the perceived quality of the "box". But alas, it's sound that I really want not nice boxes, as I said those are a dime a dozen these days. But I still dream to have it all.

I am anxiously awaiting more comments here on this rarely discussed topic.

Cheers,
Ed
 

 

[turkey]

quality of the "box". But alas, it's sound that I really want not nice boxes, as I said those are a dime a dozen these days. But I still dream to have it all.

I am anxiously awaiting more comments here on this rarely discussed topic.

It would be interesting if chassis could be made by craftsmen and then stuffed with circuitry by electronics designers. You'd go out and select the box, and then shop for electronics to put into it.

[EthanH]

[...] For things I know nothing about, I often find myself looking at how it is built and if it is well-executed, I figure that the rest of the thing is too.    That is sometimes true, and sometimes not.

I think this is a very common sentiment.  I am aware of many small manufacturers that produce superb sounding components with a generic and utilitarian appearance, but it takes a significant level of interest, experience, and familiarity with the hobby to discover these products.  In comparison, I think most people will instantly feel confident that a product with a fit and finish of the sort associated with brands like Mark Levinson, MBL, or Nagra is a superlative component.

[srb]

I am aware of many small manufacturers that produce superb sounding components with a generic and utilitarian appearance, but it takes a significant level of interest, experience, and familiarity with the hobby to discover these products.  In comparison, I think most people will instantly feel confident that a product with a fit and finish of the sort associated with brands like Mark Levinson, MBL, or Nagra is a superlative component.

I think that the middle of the road approach can convey the true beauty of great industrial design.  Neither project box aesthetics nor overly complicated machining with excessive amounts of material is desireable to me.
 
Simplicity with beauty.  Smooth CNC cut aluminum fascia with a minimalist detail here or there combined with precise and tasetful silkscreening.  Adds some cost to the product, but doesn't have to add a lot.
 
We buy our furniture (audio and non-audio) with beauty and smoothness of finish, even though it doesn't add to the function.  Our components (those that are not relegated to a hidden rack-mount installation) become part of the lifestyle decor of our living environments.
 
It's not too much to ask that tastefulness of aesthetic design is applied to them as well.
 
Steve

[virtue]

Hey Guys,

This is a great discussion and there are obviously many great points of view here.

I'll respond to what I consider the only criticism in this thread and that is the proposition that our amps should achieve maximum performance with the "standard" power supply.  I do realize that it would be an even better deal to be able to get 87wpc in the $300 configuration.  Economically, that's not possible.

So why do it?  In fact, the base amp is awesome and it gets better the more power you throw at it.  Some customers want to provide their own power supplies, or battery power units.  Shouldn't they have the ability to buy a unit as cheaply as possible?  For those wanting more power, should they be forced spend another $150 with their initial purchase?   It doesn't cost us much more to build an amp that handles 40wpc or 90wpc (so we choose to overbuild it) but it does cost a lot more for the supplies that can deliver this power. 

Were we to build an amp that did only 30wpc, we could have done it for much less money and you'd have much less pretty metal-work since we'd have no heat issues or need for as much aluminum mass to conduct it out of the unit.  And there would be no major PSU upgrades possible.

Similarly, the TWO/THREE will be capable of over 130wpc+++, but you won't get that in the "base" configuration since most of those customers are going to be buying 36v battery packs from third parties to drive them. 

About what's important, look, feel, or sound - I was drawn to high-end audio by the all of these attributes.  I will not compete with plastic products, even those that sound good and are cheaper.  You can't buy even a competent driving BMW with plastic doors and similarly, we're not going to sell products with crappy build quality.

Seth