[StereoNut]

es347:
Believe me, if I had the means to do it, I would LOVE a "man cave" to call my own for a dedicated listening room.  Unfortunately, I don't have any other place to really work with.  To be honest, we just re-furbed our whole damned house 5-6 years ago, so we ain't moving anytime soon. 

The only thought I had over the course of this thread was to consider my detached garage, except that opens up another "whole can of worms".  First off, my garage is like one oversized closet!  Never gets used for any of our cars.  Yes, with a lot of elbow grease I could throw a good deal of crap out (I'm the pack-rat, so this would make my wife happy!) and try to set up a listening room there.  Here are the issues:

 - The interior of the garage is UN-finished.
 - It's UN-heated! (I live in the North East)
 - I have electric in there, but have no idea as to what's on the circuit or how many circuits there may be.
 - With the garage door closed, it becomes a "cathedral" ceiling, so to speak. (In which I don't know whether that's good or bad?)
 - Bare concrete floors
 - Not the greatest "seal" at the garage door bottom, so it gets dusty it there really fast. 
    And, once you open that garage door, the wind swirls everything through there... dust, leaves, you name it!

Even if all of these problems could be overcome, how much $$$ is a project like this going to cost!?

Thanks!
SN

[Delacroix]

All this talk of speaker placement got me thinking and exploring what's out there in terms of advice. The Cardas and related methods seem well known, but less familiar to me, at least, is the so-called Master Placement approach which has been discussed on AC before -- check this out from the archives:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64320.0

If any of you are inclined to try it (I will when I get the chance but it won't be this week or next), please share your impressions of how it worked with your Vons.

[StereoNut]

Thanks, Delacroix.  I have seen Master Placement mentioned before, but never really got to see a full explanation of it.  I will read through all of it when I have more time, but it sounds (pardon the pun) terrific!

SN

[StereoNut]

To all:

I have finally gotten around to trying a few things with speaker placement.  (Sorry this took so long.)

Before doing anything else, I bought 2 sets of Herbies "cone/glider" thingies to make moving my VR4 Gen.III's around easier. 

http://herbiesaudiolab.net/spkrfeet.htm#cone

I then recruited an audio buddy to come over last night to help out.  We listened to a few cuts with my system "as is" to get a reference point and then swapped in the Herbie's gliders to replace my old metal cones.  (Speaker positioning remained STET.)  We re-played those same few songs and as much as I hoped to hear an improvement with Herbie's gliders alone (like many of you here at AC have experienced with them) there really wasn't much difference.  Maybe (and I stress the "maybe" here) there was a little more "body". It was most evident in one of the tracks with a lot of overly articulated percussion, which now had a little more "weight" to it to sound a little more realistic.

We put my friend's Sheffield set-up disk in my CD player and gave a listen.  The tracks we used on this disk has the guy talking to you, telling you that he is either in phase or out-of-phase and what he should sound like in your room for each setting. 

The cover on the disk we had looked different, so this link may be for a re-issue?

http://www.amazon.com/Sheffield-Coustic-Set-Up-Test-Disc/dp/B00000J7TU/ref=pd_rhf_p_t_4

Anyway, the object of this set-up disk is to make the in-phase sound as focused to the center as possible and the out-of-phase sound completely opposite (duh!) with the voice being dispersed about the room without any central location.  Now the real fun began as we started to experiment with my speaker placement.  First we moved my speakers a little bit closer together; from 9 ft. apart to about 8 ft. apart, which helped the focus of the in-phase and made things sound more coherent with music later on.  Unfortunately, thanks to my far from symmetrical room, the out-of-phase was still uneven with the right speaker being dominant.  So, we moved my right speaker back (closer to the front wall behind it) about 4-5 inches to balance the out-of-phase track, left <> right.  OK - so far, so good.  We next listened to some music to "re-ground" ourselves.  Overall, it sounded alright - but just alright.  Next, we started working on soundstage by playing around with toe-in.  Too much toe-in gave us a really wide soundstage, but the center image kind of lost focus.  We continued to adjust the toe-in back n' forth until we found a good balance with as wide of a left <> right soundstage as possible (which was much wider than where we started before any toe-in) and yet keeping a good focus on the center image.

I am sure that there can be countless incremental moves from here to "dial" things in even better, but this is definitely a real good starting point.  I am going to just try and get some listening time in with a good amount of recordings that I'm very familiar with to get comfortable with what the system now sounds like.  Then I'll mask off the floor so I don't lose my current speaker placement and then start adjusting again.

If I can get my hands on the Famous Blue Raincoat recording by Jennifer Warnes that's recommended for Master Set placement

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65908.0

I may (?) try that next.

More to come... possibly???
SN

[musiciseverything]

Stereonut,

I hope you don't mind me butting in.  I just recently used the Master Set placement method for my VSA VR-4JRs and wanted to add my two cents.  I have tried all the "tried and true" methods and couldn't get it to sound right.  This is the only method that worked for me and it only took me 2 hours.  Finally my sound is balanced and the instruments sound more real and grounded.  I used Bela Fleck's Flight of the cosmic hippos for a bass line.  Worked perfectly and costs nothing. When I measured the final position of the speakers, there was no formula that would have placed them there.  So much for formulas.  I also see that you have equipment in between the speakers.  I understand the dilemma but it really ruins imaging.  Good luck.

[StereoNut]

Hi "M.I.E."

I am very happy that you took the time to "butt in" here!  I have finally bought a copy of the Wasserman/Warnes "Duets" CD for the "Ballad of a Horse" song, but haven't actually gotten to try the Master Set placement yet.  I have been collecting tidbits of information from various people on the forums that have done Master Set and once I get an audio buddy to come over to be tortured, uh... I mean "share the experience" of Master Set, I'll see if I can get similar results.  Yes, I know that having my TV stand and big screen plasma in between my speakers doesn't help any, but the room "is what it is", if you know what I mean.

If you have any helpful hints to speed up the M.S. process, please PM me.

Thanks!
SN

[musiciseverything]

Stereonut,

One issue is that there is no specific instruction for how far apart you start with the speakers.  In your case that may already be determined by your layout.  If there is any flexibility, then you will end up at an equilateral triangle plus or minus so it may depend on your seating position.  I turned off the rear tweeter.  As I pulled the speakers out inch by inch I noticed that the bass was at first weak and then was strong, almost boomy, then weaker.  A hidden instruction is to listen not only from your normal seat but also sit in the other seats if you want them to be equalized as well.  There is a position where the bass is even throughout most of the seats and you cannot hear the other speaker.  Then you pull the other speaker out as directed.  My speakers are not perfectly equidistant from my ears, but the sound is perfectly balanced along all frequencies.  In essence, forget about where the speakers are "supposed" to be and let the speakers "play" the room using your own ears.  The more you listen to the speakers in their positions, the more acute your hearing becomes and the bigger your smile!  Have fun and take your time.

[Albert Von Schweikert]

Hello StereoNut, you can solve the lack of bass due to your open floor plan by reaching in the vent openings and removing some of the Dacron pillow stuffing.  Do this a handful at a time, and if you end up with too much bass, put a handful or so back in.
I remember telling you not to toe in the speakers due to the close proximity and I recall you wanted to get the maximum stage width.  However, seeing the photo of your room, I agree with a previous post that you should experiment with toe in, one inch at a time.

Your room doesn't look all that bad to me, I've owned worse and had to struggle to get the magic, but I always managed to find the right spot and have fun while doing so.
My thanks to all the previous posters who have all made some good suggestions. By the way, the original run of Gen 3's had the port covered and we were recommending that stuffing density changes could be accomplished from the rear terminal cup, but this proved to be difficult and we went back to the exposed port to enable the fine tuning of the bass.

Albert

[StereoNut]

"M.I.E."

Thanks for the additional "pointers" on Master Set.  Once I get the time set aside to attempt it I will let everyone here know how it goes.

Albert

Thanks for taking the time to comment here.  I believe that I can safely speak for all of us who participate in this (V.S.A. Owners) circle and say that it's always special when we hear from you.  If you read one of my more recent posts here, you will note that I have already started to "play" with toe-in.  I think things are a bit better now, but I'm sure there can be more fine-tuning that can be done.  I am going to hold off on pulling the Dacron out of my speakers until I can attempt the Master Set speaker placement set-up and see what effect that has first.  (Maybe, there's no reason to pull out the "stuffing" if the speakers are placed in the room properly?) In the meantime, if I get the chance I will take and post a few updated pictures to show the latest adjustments I have made placement-wise.  The changes will look rather subtle, but they did make quite a bit of a change in the sound.

To all

Allow me to echo Albert and again thank everyone who has contributed their insight and expertise within this circle.  It is very much appreciated.

SN