[SundayNiagara]

Jack: Thanks for the pix and your ideas for room treatment.

Sunday: Thanks for your continued wise-ass remarks. You are in need of treatment.

Here are two shots of my listening room to give everyone a better idea of what I'm talking about.





Thanks!
SN

Speakers are too close to the wall behind them.  Plus, that tv screen is probably causing reflection problems.  Also, there is no room treatment whatsoever.  And, I agree with the person who said try spreading them out with some toe in.  Every time I've heard VS speakers, they were toed in and threw a wide & deep soundstage.

[JackD201]

Hi SN, try borrowing a big 'ol amp just for kicks. I haven't come across a big 'ol amp with the Naim trademark attack though. Anyhow it couldn't hurt except perhaps your back! Just remember to lift with your legs 

[StereoNut]

Sunday:
Thanks for your constructive insight to things now that you've seen the pix of my listening room.  That's the kind of info. that will be of help to me here.
   

I agree with you in regards to the lack of room treatment.  To be honest with you, room treatment scares the hell out of me because I don't know where to start and even worse, how to integrate it into the room and pass the "WAF".  I have thrown a blanket over the top (front) of the plasma to see if it helped with any reflection issues, but honestly didn't really hear any significant change with it or without.  I have thought of hanging some sort of tapestry on that front wall, but the air conditioning vent then is in the way and I'm not sure how to work my way around it.   Again, keep in mind that I'd like to stay married! 

As far as speaker placement goes, I really can't move the speakers out further into the room (See top picture) because it will "cut off" the path to the doorway behind the right speaker. Spreading them out will create the same problem... and even if I had the room to move them apart further, my 12 foot speaker cables are stretched as far as they can go to that far side. Besides, Mr. Von Schweikert also told me that I actually may want to move the speakers back (closer) to the wall behind them to reinforce the bass some, since I'm really not getting any of that reinforcement from the side walls. Albert also told me that the toe-in would effect the width of my soundstage (which as I stated before is one of the things I really like about my VR-4's right now) so I am hesitant to do it.  Then again, it can't hurt anything (but my back) to try it.  I'm thinking of ordering 2 sets of Herbies coupling gliders to put under the spikes to make speaker positioning on the tile floor a lot easier to experiment with.

Delacroix:
Most of my reply above applies to your comments as well.  Thanks for your thoughts on this. 

Jack:
Borrowing a "big 'ol amp" would be fun, but I'd then be up against the wonderful issue of Naim electronics "playing nice" with other equipment due to their infamous DIN connector IC's.  I'm not ready to get a custom made IC ($$$) to run to a borrowed amp just to experiment.  At least not yet, anyway! 

SN

[JackD201]

You're right! Naim has a "NAC" for being difficult that way 

[SundayNiagara]

Sunday:
Thanks for your constructive insight to things now that you've seen the pix of my listening room.  That's the kind of info. that will be of help to me here.
   

I agree with you in regards to the lack of room treatment.  To be honest with you, room treatment scares the hell out of me because I don't know where to start and even worse, how to integrate it into the room and pass the "WAF".  I have thrown a blanket over the top (front) of the plasma to see if it helped with any reflection issues, but honestly didn't really hear any significant change with it or without.  I have thought of hanging some sort of tapestry on that front wall, but the air conditioning vent then is in the way and I'm not sure how to work my way around it.   Again, keep in mind that I'd like to stay married! 

As far as speaker placement goes, I really can't move the speakers out further into the room (See top picture) because it will "cut off" the path to the doorway behind the right speaker. Spreading them out will create the same problem... and even if I had the room to move them apart further, my 12 foot speaker cables are stretched as far as they can go to that far side. Besides, Mr. Von Schweikert also told me that I actually may want to move the speakers back (closer) to the wall behind them to reinforce the bass some, since I'm really not getting any of that reinforcement from the side walls. Albert also told me that the toe-in would effect the width of my soundstage (which as I stated before is one of the things I really like about my VR-4's right now) so I am hesitant to do it.  Then again, it can't hurt anything (but my back) to try it.  I'm thinking of ordering 2 sets of Herbies coupling gliders to put under the spikes to make speaker positioning on the tile floor a lot easier to experiment with.

Delacroix:
Most of my reply above applies to your comments as well.  Thanks for your thoughts on this. 

Jack:
Borrowing a "big 'ol amp" would be fun, but I'd then be up against the wonderful issue of Naim electronics "playing nice" with other equipment due to their infamous DIN connector IC's.  I'm not ready to get a custom made IC ($$$) to run to a borrowed amp just to experiment.  At least not yet, anyway! 

SN

I wouldn't move the speakers back towards the wall.  However, it looks as though there is a little room to move them out further and I would definitely do that.  Also, try toeing them in.  As I said before, it won't hurt the staging at all.  I used to work for a VSA dealer here in Miami, so I know where I'm coming from.

[jimdgoulding]

SN, the rear and outside of your cabinets right on the white border of your rug on both sides oughta more open up the world for you in more breadth and depth of field.  A GIK panel to lay sideways up against your televison screen would help dot the eyes.   

[satfrat]

  A GIK panel to lay sideways up against your televison screen would help dot the eyes.   

Visine helps dot the eyes also and it's a whole lot cheaper to boot! 
 
Cheers,
Robin

[jimdgoulding]

  A GIK panel to lay sideways up against your televison screen would help dot the eyes.   

Visine helps dot the eyes also and it's a whole lot cheaper to boot! 
 
Cheers,
Robin

He means well.

[satfrat]

  A GIK panel to lay sideways up against your televison screen would help dot the eyes.   

Visine helps dot the eyes also and it's a whole lot cheaper to boot! 
 
Cheers,
Robin

He means well.

Yes he does. 

[StereoNut]

To all:  I appreciate the ideas each of you have come up with, but many of them are not going to work for me in this room for one or more reasons as follows... 

As I bring the speakers into the room more and/or spread them further apart, the less functional the room becomes as living space for everybody else in the house.  If you look at the photo that I have just posted of the right side of my system, you will see how tight the space is between my right speaker and the arm of the small couch next to it.  I can't make the path past my right side speaker to the doorway in that front right corner of the room much narrower than it already is, otherwise it would become way too tight of a space to get through comfortably.  I also can't expect everybody to make "wide turns" like a tractor trailer driver, to negotiate themselves past my speakers that would jut too far out into the room if I moved them further away from the front wall. (You try and tell 2 teenagers and their friends to "take it easy" around Dad's precious VR-4's and you'll see how long before you're picking up your tweeter/mid modules off of the floor!) 


Besides of all of that (even if I did have the extra room to work with) my 12 foot speaker cables are as far as they can go to that far right side.  Yes, I can move my equipment cabinet over a little to the right to give me a little more "slack" so to speak, but it's going to be negligible.  And, yeah I can buy longer speaker cable, but again there's a cost $$$ factor that I have to say no to at this point. 


When I get the chance to do some listening again, I will try a very slight toe-in and see what happens.  At least it's a simple tweak and it costs me nothing to try it. 

Thanks!
SN

P.S. to Jim: Excuse my inexperience here.  What's a GIK panel?

[jimdgoulding]

Oh, sure, GIK is a company that makes affordable and effective panels to absorb unwanted reflection from surfaces and/or boundaries.  Next time the wife and kids are at your inlaws, pull those speakers out right to where I suggested and turn out the lights, after having put on some music, of course.  You'll see why when you do.  You could put them at the outside corners of the green part of your rug instead of on the white border to widen the passage way or something in between.  Your speakers need space to give you what's really available in your recordings. 

[martin_eg]

Hi StereoNut,
If none of theese good sudgestions you have got from all nice guys does not help, it is time for more radical cuts! If so, stop locking at the small adjustments ( I know you have stated that you can?t do anything about the room setup) think bigger  aa. Your right door for instance, why not block it, move it 2 m into the room or make an entrance from adjacent room? Changing door openings is not a big deal! If this, after some thinking and negotiation with you WAF, would be possible, you suddenly have the opportunity to turn everything to the right.
An other step is to put your speakers on wheels. By or make some outriggers and put on some mediumsoft wheels. Now you can draw them to the right position when you want to. Good luck/Martin

[McTwins]

Hi
How about putting the speakers on the opposite long side wall, how does this area looks like.
You are right about the no bass support for the left and the right corners in this position you have. I also have TV between my speakers and I don't hear any difference here with or without TV. You could also try moving the speakers closer together. At my TV corner the speakers between measure 1,7 meters with some toe-in.
Thanks   

[StereoNut]

Martin: Thanks for the fresh approach.  I really got a laugh out of it!   

McT: Some of my comments from page 1 will answer your questions here. (See cut & paste below)

 - Putting everything on the opposite (long) wall isn't going to work because the stereo and TV etc. will block the windows!

 - Turning everything around to the short dimension of the room would be a better set up for stereo, but is impossible because if I set everything up 90 degrees to the right, it blocks the windows and cuts off the path to the doorway in that corner.

 - If I set everything up 90 degrees to the left, it blocks a window and closets and cuts off the path from my back door through the listening room into the kitchen via the open archway in that corner.   

 - Even if I could find room to move my equipment cabinet somewhere else, I'm now creating an issue with "mile long" speaker cables (they're 12 footers now) and then not being able to hide a longer run of speaker cable anywhere because the floors are ceramic tile and you know that drilling holes in it to run cable through the crawl space isn't happening.  At least not if I intend on remaining married!

Thanks!
SN

[McTwins]

Hi
Is it so harmful to block the window.

[es347]

Time to build on a dedicated listening room.  Be sure to leave a gap beneath the entry door so your wife can slide the food plates in.

[StereoNut]

McT: I realize "removing" the two doorways from the equation by turning the system around to the facing wall (which is primarily all windows) would be a big help, but we're not talking about just a little corner of something in front of those windows.

The VR-4's and the equipment cabinet are about 17" taller than the window sills.  Even worse, the plasma TV is about 31" taller than those same sills.  All together they would stretch out to block 13 of the total of 16 feet across of window space on that opposing wall.  It's just not going to work. 

I will try to experiment with a slight toe-in like many of you have suggested and see what that brings me.

[StereoNut]

Time to build on a dedicated listening room.  Be sure to leave a gap beneath the entry door so your wife can slide the food plates in.

es347 - You just made my whole day!!!  Thanks!   

[McTwins]

Hi
Ok, I see.

[es347]

Time to build on a dedicated listening room.  Be sure to leave a gap beneath the entry door so your wife can slide the food plates in.

es347 - You just made my whole day!!!  Thanks!   

My comment wasn't totally tongue-in-cheek.  We are in our forth house now that we have designed and built.  The difference this time is that I now have a dedicated listening...let's call it...area...and it has made all the difference.  Even though I haven't stuffed those nifty little Michael Green pillows in the ceiling/wall corners or placed several of those low WAF acoustic panels about strategically (no offense to those who have ), I was able to play with speaker placement at will.  I now have everything working very well; much better than formerly when I shared space in living/family rooms.  So far the man cave concept hasn't seemed to put undue strain on my marriage.