Thinking about Koetsu (and other) Cartridges Again

jsaliga · « **on:** 7 Nov 2009, 11:57 pm »

It almost seems like a foregone conclusion to me. Eventually all vinylphiles get around to trying a Koetsu MC cartridge. I have largely resisted temptation, but my ability to resist might be breaking down. I am using an Ortofon Jubliee at the moment, and I consider it to be a fine cartridge. Probably the best I have ever heard. I also own an Ortofon Kontrapunkt A and a Benz Copper Reference 3. I recently sold the two ZYX cartridges that I owned, not having cared much for either of them (a R100 Fuji and an Airy 3).

If I were to give in I could go as far as a new Black or Rosewood, or alternatively look for a used Urushi or Rosewood Signature. Thoughts and comments, paritcularly from current or former Koetsu cartridge owners would be most helpful. I would be mounting it on a SME 309.

--Jerome

Curly Woods · « **Reply #1 on:** 8 Nov 2009, 12:41 am »

Quote from: jsaliga on 7 Nov 2009, 11:57 pm

It almost seems like a forgone conclusion to me. Eventually all vinylphiles get around to trying a Koetsu MC cartridge. I have largely resisted temptation, but my ability to resist might be breaking down. I am using an Ortofon Jubliee at the moment, and I consider it to be a fine cartridge. Probably the best I have ever heard. I also own an Ortofon Kontrapunkt A and a Benz Copper Reference 3. I recently sold the two ZYX cartridges that I owned, not having cared much for either of them (a R100 Fuji and an Airy 3).

If I were to give in I could go as far as a new Black or Rosewood, or alternatively look for a used Urushi or Rosewood Signature. Thoughts and comments, paritcularly from current or former Koetsu cartridge owners would be most helpful. I would be mounting it on a SME 309.

--Jerome

Never a fan of the Black's, but the Rosewoods are pure velvet to me. May not be the final word in resolution, but they do put the romance back into music. When the tip hits the record, I almost immediately start to smile, my feet start tapping and I am drawn totally into the performance. How's that for an unbiased view of the Koetsu's

jsaliga · « **Reply #2 on:** 8 Nov 2009, 01:31 am »

Thanks. The funny thing is that if someone were ask me what it is about my Ortofon Jubilee that I don't like I would probably say there is nothing about it I don't like. It is vibrant, has wonderfully lush mids, and a little sparkle on top that my Benz didn't have. And it is capable of slam when the music calls for it. So I really like the Jubliee.

But there is a Koetsu out there somewhere calling my name. I can hear it.

--Jerome

neobop · « **Reply #3 on:** 8 Nov 2009, 02:22 am »

Jerome,
I agree that a Rosewood or better is the way to go, if you're going there. They're very seductive cartridges.
Frank

jsaliga · « **Reply #4 on:** 8 Nov 2009, 02:12 pm »

I am leaning in that direction. I have found through some research that there are occasional deals to be had on the Urushis. I've seen new ones sell for between $3,000 and $3,300. That's a little past my cry uncle point for a cartridge, but I am kicking the idea around.

The only thing that slightly worries me about buying one is falling into the groupthink trap where I end up with good thoughts about it merely because others rave about them and I spent a lot of money on it. This happens to a lot of audiophiles, methinks. For example, it took me a while to come to the realization that I really hated both the ZYX R100 Fuji and Airy3. I kept trying to say nice things about them and kept positive thoughts in my head. I kept telling myself that ZYX cartridges needed a lot more break-in than other carts I have owned. But in the end I felt that they were both handily outperformed by a Ortofon Kontrapunkt A that I paid $675 for brand new and a three year old Benz Glider H2 that had at least 350 hours on it if not more. So I eventually did get to the conclusion that I wasn't doing myself any favors by hanging on to cartridges that I didn't enjoy.

And I have to admit that another thing that holds me back is thinking about all the vinyl that I could buy with the money I would spend on a Koetsu, or perhaps buy a different cartridge plus a lot of vinyl. There are other carts that interest me as well such as the Grado Statement Reference and the Lyra Helikon. For what I would pay for a Koetsu I could buy either of those plus a nice haul of new audiophile vinyl to boot. But I also understand that if you are really jonesing for a Koetsu then nothing else will do.

It isn't like I have to make a decision today. I can take some time to think it over, and that's why I started this thread. The input is much appreciated.

--Jerome

Gopher · « **Reply #5 on:** 9 Nov 2009, 04:42 am »

I'm the owner of a Koetsu Rosewood Signature and it can make very beautiful, romantic music. That said, it doesn't necessarily have the boogie factor I occasionally crave.

Rolling some telefunken (12ax7) tubes into my phonostage have helped with the fun factor a good bit, but if your system already errs to the romantic side a Koetsu might be a bit much.

I do like mine a lot, but sometimes fantacize about a high end MC on the other side of the spectrum. The most "fun" cart I've had was a Dynavector 20xL and I am curious about their higher end offerings...

jsaliga · « **Reply #6 on:** 9 Nov 2009, 02:45 pm »

Thanks Gopher. I've thought about Dynavector cartrdiges on and off though I have no personal experience with them. I know one person who owns a XV-1s and he thinks the world of it, but I wasn't looking to throw down $5K for a cartridge. I am a little intrigued by the XX-2 and TE Kaitora Rua -- though there aren't very many reviews of these to be found.

--Jerome

jazdoc · « **Reply #7 on:** 9 Nov 2009, 04:10 pm »

Gang,

A very happy Dynavector XV-1S owner here but I understand the pull of the Koetsu. You know it's not as neutral but the coloration is so pleasant that you don't care.

Mark

woodsyi · « **Reply #8 on:** 9 Nov 2009, 04:29 pm »

SME 309 and Koetsu should work well together. What phonostage are you using?

jsaliga · « **Reply #9 on:** 9 Nov 2009, 05:35 pm »

Musical Surroundings Phenomena II

--Jerome

woodsyi · « **Reply #10 on:** 9 Nov 2009, 06:12 pm »

May I suggest that before you spend 2k on a Koetsu, try auditioning a good tube phono pre and see if that will get you the robustness you are probably missing from some of these carts you have tried. ZYX are great carts but they don't do well with accurate/thin phono stages. IMHO, they sound much better with tubey richness. Phonomena 2 may be limiting some of the carts to do their thing.

jsaliga · « **Reply #11 on:** 9 Nov 2009, 06:34 pm »

I appreciate the suggestion but I disagree. I am quite confident that my phono preamp is more than sufficient. I don't mean any offense by that and I understand that you were trying to offer a helpful suggestion. My statement is merely a reflection of my priorities and a belief that a quality transducer is much more difficult and costly to make than a quality phono preamp.

--Jerome

woodsyi · « **Reply #12 on:** 9 Nov 2009, 06:48 pm »

I actually think phono stages make more difference than carts (once you get to a certain performance level) or I wouldn't have upgraded my Aesthetix IO to the latest Eclipse stage for the money I paid. Most anything (within the right parameter) sound good with this phono stage.

jsaliga · « **Reply #13 on:** 9 Nov 2009, 07:04 pm »

I respect your opinion and know there are a lot of audiophiles who feel the same way. But it is a viewpoint that I don't share. My priorities, in the order of importance, are:

Turntable --> Tonearm --> Cartridge --> Phono Preamp.

I would rather not to open that up to debate, since I am not likely to change my mind. I have already found the turntable, tonearm, and phono preamp that satisfies me and have no intention of changing any of these components. I am, however, still open to trying different cartridges and that is what I would prefer to focus on.

--Jerome

vinyl_guy · « **Reply #14 on:** 9 Nov 2009, 07:18 pm »

Jerome,

I, too am searching for a new cartridge for my SME IV.Vi arm. I have never owned a Koetsu--I've made the assumption, rightly or wrongly, that a Koetsu would be too warm or lush for my musical preferences which are more than 90% rock including all variations thereof. I get my warmth from a vacuum tube pre amp and phono stage. I spent a lot of time at RMAF listening to different cartridges. The XV-1s was on dsplay in several rooms and I am very impressed with its ability to deliver the music without adding "color." I also was impressed with the Soundsmith Voice. Spirit started a circle on The Voice after having one installed on his tone arm (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=72598.0).

While I have not had an opportunity to audition any of the following cartridges, they have been recommended to me in my search--Benz Ruby and LP-S, and Lyra Skala.

Laura

jsaliga · « **Reply #15 on:** 9 Nov 2009, 07:47 pm »

Hi Laura,

I use a tube preamp and 300B tube mono block amps.

I have also heard that the Grado wood bodies are pretty warm and lush sounding.

I've heard a lot of good things about the Soundsmith cartridges and even spoke to Peter once on the phone about possibly re-tipping a Benz that I really liked a lot. But Peter had a fairly long backlog of work and I didn't want to wait so I ended up buying my Ortofon.

I am considering a Koetsu (and other cartridges) not because I am dissastisfied with my Jubilee, but out of sheer curiosity about the sound of the Koetsus. So right now the lure of one is pretty strong, but I am also interested in a number of other cartridges (one of them is a moving magnet!).

I haven't heard the Benz Ruby but I own a Benz Copper Reference and very much enjoy its sound. The Ruby is a step up in quality.

--Jerome

woodsyi · « **Reply #16 on:** 9 Nov 2009, 07:55 pm »

Rosewood, Rosewood signature and Urushi all sound similar. I think there is a bigger jump between the RW and RWS than there is between RWS and Urushi in my opinion. Ruby 2/3 is more even top to bottom but is a tad bit more polite (perhaps due to lack of mid range bloom) than Koetsu lineup.

jsaliga · « **Reply #17 on:** 9 Nov 2009, 08:35 pm »

Thanks woodsyi, those are very helpful and interesting observations.

--Jerome

marknoir · « **Reply #18 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 01:01 am »

Hi. Just saw an ad on Asylum classifieds for a new Urushi for $2700 or so. Good deal, IMHO, but it may very well be a scam. I've had a lot of Koetsus over the years, am a fan, and can understand your desire to try one. I personally prefer Onyx, if you can find one affordable enough. To me it strikes a perfect balance tonally. It is full bodied, with great bass, but, surprisingly, somehow is not too warm. Rosewoods are warm, too warm to my ears, and not my favourits. Black (Goldline) is "normal" sounding, that is, a bit simple, with the least "charm", but still sounds like a Koetsu. I actually like it a lot. What I like about Koetsus, is the slightly recessed treble, that doesn't hit me in the face. I find most MCs to be too bright to my ears. Could not stand ZYX at all. I always liked (back in the day) Goldbug cartridges, which had similar to Koetsu tonal balans, or, more recently, Allaerts.

When Koetsu is set-up right, it has a huge transparent midrange with lots of details AND body, something most cartridges just don't have. And they make music

If you felt that your Benz was a bit wanting in the treble, be careful, as Koetsus do not have Ortofon-style treble. Koetsu treble (and details) is sort of imbedded into wall of sound, integrated into it. But that is exactly what I like. And why I don't like ZYX.

I suggest getting a used one to get an idea, before you sell your car to get one new

IMHO, they are definitely overpriced (just like most other high-end cartridges). And I agree with some previous comments that your phono stage is not up there for something like an Onyx Platinum at $8000. My Onyx was an early Platinum, and I tried it with some medium-priced preamps, including an early CAT, and it was OK, sometimes good, but I always felt that there was more to it. Only after I put it through S&B TX103 step-up transformer and Hagerman Trumpet it showed it's real identity. Try a Black or a used Rosewood first. SME 309 is good enough, but Koetsus (especially heavier ones) work best in heavy arms, like Fidelity Research, Ikeda, Dynavector etc.

Good luck!

jsaliga · « **Reply #19 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 10:33 am »

Quote from: marknoir on 10 Nov 2009, 01:01 am

Try a Black or a used Rosewood first. SME 309 is good enough, but Koetsus (especially heavier ones) work best in heavy arms, like Fidelity Research, Ikeda, Dynavector etc.

I'm glad you brought this up though I would have checked it before actually spending any money. It seems that the only Koetsu that is a good compliance match for my tonearm is the Black. The Urushi and Rosewood Signature, if the cartridge database is accurate, both appear to call for a high mass tonearm. As a result, I am much less interested in these cartridges today than I was yesterday.

This brings a few of the other cartridges I am curious about into stronger contention. I could still go for a Koetsu Black...but now the Lyra Helikon and Grado Statement Series Reference 1 are seriously in the running. Both of those are good compliance matches for my arm, as is the Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood (its a moving magnet) that I am curious about.

--Jerome