[ctviggen]

Anyone have any opinions on whether cryogenic treatment of the following is worth the cost:

1) AC power wires (10 gauge, THHN, to be installed in EMT in an isolated ground system)
2) Various tubes for a headphone preamp and chinese-made amp I use for my center channel
3) Hospital-grade, isolated ground, 20 amp outlets that accept 10 gauge wires (to be used on my main system)

For a minimum of $90, I can probably have all of that treated.  I currently have cryoed outlets, speaker wire, and a tube for my headphone preamp, but I never compared "before" and "after" treatment -- I bought these already treated. 

Any suggestions/ comments welcome.

[alan m. kafton]

Absolutely yes. You will reap improved sonic performance across the board. Note that everything will require re-conditioning (break-in) post-treatment, as the molecular structure is compacted, removing and reducing voids in the materials. And the treatment is permanent, so it is a good value.

[twitch54]

Note that everything will require re-conditioning (break-in) post-treatment, as the molecular structure is compacted, removing and reducing voids in the materials.

??????????????????? regarding the 'break-in', could you provide scientific / engineering reasoning to/for this.

[KCI-JohnP]

Absolutely yes. You will reap improved sonic performance across the board. Note that everything will require re-conditioning (break-in) post-treatment, as the molecular structure is compacted, removing and reducing voids in the materials. And the treatment is permanent, so it is a good value.

I agree with Alan, well worth it. You should give it a try. 

[cryoparts]

Anyone have any opinions on whether cryogenic treatment of the following is worth the cost:

1) AC power wires (10 gauge, THHN, to be installed in EMT in an isolated ground system)
2) Various tubes for a headphone preamp and chinese-made amp I use for my center channel
3) Hospital-grade, isolated ground, 20 amp outlets that accept 10 gauge wires (to be used on my main system)

For a minimum of $90, I can probably have all of that treated.  I currently have cryoed outlets, speaker wire, and a tube for my headphone preamp, but I never compared "before" and "after" treatment -- I bought these already treated. 

Any suggestions/ comments welcome.

Send me your tubes, I'll do them for free with my next load (next week) and you can report the results.

Peace,

Lee

[satfrat]

Wow Bob,,, you're very fortunate that Lee's offering you an opprotunity to hear for yourself the benefits of cryogenics. For me, I've always experienced a darker background that allows more music to be heard and have been so blown away from this that I've gone to the extreme and had all my components completely cryoed. Tho I don't really recommend component cryoing because of it's inherent risks, I've never regretted any of my efforts. The only things that haven't been cryoed in my system are my speakers and my HTPC.
 
Cheers,
Robin

[mjosef]

My experiences(very limited)...

1. Did not have a positive result cryoing copper wire, this was in the form of a power cord. There was a loss in clarity and detail, like the life was sucked outa' the wire.
2. I have used cryoed tubes, but never did do a comparison with a non-cryoed version.
3. Outlets...hell yeah, good positive results with these.
Also connectors, plugs and IECs, positive results.

YMWV

[K Shep]

Note that everything will require re-conditioning (break-in) post-treatment, as the molecular structure is compacted, removing and reducing voids in the materials.

Will you please expand on this statement.  While I believe I've experienced an audible difference in parts and pieces of audio equipment, this tweak is hard for me to get my head around.

[alan m. kafton]

1. Did not have a positive result cryoing copper wire, this was in the form of a power cord. There was a loss in clarity and detail, like the life was sucked outa' the wire.

That's because of the complete change in state, and why I said that "everything will require re-conditioning post-treatment".  In every case, where I have re-conditioned cabling, the sonic results were far better than a non-cryo'd cable (in direct comparison). Your cable not only needed full conditioning, but when you listened, it needed far more than what you had put on it at that time.

[mjosef]

Your cable not only needed full conditioning, but when you listened, it needed far more than what you had put on it at that time.

Ummm, not sure what period of time qualify as "full conditioning", I had the cable on my amp for about 5-6 weeks...this amp is on 24/7. My impression was formed when I replaced the cryoed cable with a non cryoed version(same type, connectors and all).

[ctviggen]

Anyone have any opinions on whether cryogenic treatment of the following is worth the cost:

1) AC power wires (10 gauge, THHN, to be installed in EMT in an isolated ground system)
2) Various tubes for a headphone preamp and chinese-made amp I use for my center channel
3) Hospital-grade, isolated ground, 20 amp outlets that accept 10 gauge wires (to be used on my main system)

For a minimum of $90, I can probably have all of that treated.  I currently have cryoed outlets, speaker wire, and a tube for my headphone preamp, but I never compared "before" and "after" treatment -- I bought these already treated. 

Any suggestions/ comments welcome.

Send me your tubes, I'll do them for free with my next load (next week) and you can report the results.

Peace,

Lee

I would do that, and thank you for the gracious offer, but I need to have the tubes sent, too, to get to the $90.  In other words, the minimum cost is $90. 

[twitch54]

That's because of the complete change in state, and why I said that "everything will require re-conditioning post-treatment".  In every case, where I have re-conditioned cabling, the sonic results were far better than a non-cryo'd cable (in direct comparison). Your cable not only needed full conditioning, but when you listened, it needed far more than what you had put on it at that time.

Alan, again.......simply put, if you are going to make a 'change of state' , with science and engineering behind it, in so far as proof, then science and engineering should be able prove / document the 'said' changes(audible improvements)....if not it's pure psychoacoustics !

Regardless if it makes one Happy... aa  ...go for it !

[Browntrout]

That's because of the complete change in state, and why I said that "everything will require re-conditioning post-treatment".  In every case, where I have re-conditioned cabling, the sonic results were far better than a non-cryo'd cable (in direct comparison). Your cable not only needed full conditioning, but when you listened, it needed far more than what you had put on it at that time.

Alan, again.......simply put, if you are going to make a 'change of state' , with science and engineering behind it, in so far as proof, then science and engineering should be able prove / document the 'said' changes(audible improvements)....if not it's pure psychoacoustics !

Regardless if it makes one Happy... aa  ...go for it !

 The effects of extreme temperature on metals and metals as conductors is well known and documented.
  This link is directly related to what is being discussed but may initialy seem to be talking about something else.
http://www.mrs.org/s_mrs/bin.asp?CID=2557&DID=59023&DOC=FILE.PDF
 The annealing of copper is an important part of the manufacturing process of high quality (read as high end audio spec) copper conductors so much so that Cardas control this aspect of production by doing it in-house.
 Now we can see (if you have taken the time to read the link and look at the cool pictures) that the temperature at which copper forms its' oxide can determine its' shape. It has also been known for several hundred years that the rate of cooling of a metal (from forming temp) can determine its' stress handling properties, as in the use of wet clay being painted onto the blade of a Samaurai sword to produce varying tracks of flexible strong metal intertwined with brittle metal that can hold an edge.
  Ok this link is rather less related to the specific topic but in it (it is just an excerpt from an introduction) we can read what is believed to be contributing characteristics to the conductivity of a metal with respect to nano structures, and more specifically how the closer arrangement of metalic grains reduces the need for electron tunneling to facilitate a current to flow.
 http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=w5pq6t5721323622&size=largest

Also interesting to read with nice pictures is this, though this discusses more mechanical issues dependant upon grain size it is still relevant to this topic.
http://www.lanl.gov/spd/Paper/JAPCu.pdf

I've just spent about three quarters of an hour reading about the effects of low temperature treatment on metals and other temperature treatments to get a handle on this. From what I've read there are many mechanisms that are at play and many of these could be responsible for an improvement in sound quality.
  If the original manufacturing process is so very important and to a great degree determines grain size and density (as in how much oxygen is in between) then although I don't know I can suspect that the effect of cryogenic treatment may well not be as effective with some materials as others. That mechanical factors have an effect upon grain dislocation at a nanoscopic level meaning that placing a conductor under physical strain can change the conductive properties at its' surface suggests that after cryogenic treatment some of the restructuring can be 'undone' by physical manipulation of the conductor.
  It would be nice to know what ultra pure copper that has been manufactured to be very long grained by Ohno contiuous casting sounds like after cryogenic treatment as from my very limited understanding it will either have little effect, sound amazing or actually make it worse. (I don't know enough about the effect to guess what will happen to the large grains) Perhaps one of the guys who does this for a living could let us know if there is any differences between the effect found on diferent types of copper used? Also would it be worth 'shaping' the cables before treatment, as in, getting the consumer to fix them in the shape they are used in and treating them in that shape and then the consumer keeping them in that shape by the use of a firm foam former thus limiting the stressing of the conductor after treatment?

[cryoparts]

I've just spent about three quarters of an hour reading about the effects of low temperature treatment on metals and other temperature treatments to get a handle on this. From what I've read there are many mechanisms that are at play and many of these could be responsible for an improvement in sound quality.
  If the original manufacturing process is so very important and to a great degree determines grain size and density (as in how much oxygen is in between) then although I don't know I can suspect that the effect of cryogenic treatment may well not be as effective with some materials as others. That mechanical factors have an effect upon grain dislocation at a nanoscopic level meaning that placing a conductor under physical strain can change the conductive properties at its' surface suggests that after cryogenic treatment some of the restructuring can be 'undone' by physical manipulation of the conductor.

Great start!  I applaud your effort to look into this.  I've spent 25+ years doing this, researching it, and still cannot explain it all. 

There is more to cryo treating wire/cable, non ferrous materials, and audio components than we can explain now.  Maybe someday...

 

It would be nice to know what ultra pure copper that has been manufactured to be very long grained by Ohno contiuous casting sounds like after cryogenic treatment as from my very limited understanding it will either have little effect, sound amazing or actually make it worse. (I don't know enough about the effect to guess what will happen to the large grains) Perhaps one of the guys who does this for a living could let us know if there is any differences between the effect found on diferent types of copper used? Also would it be worth 'shaping' the cables before treatment, as in, getting the consumer to fix them in the shape they are used in and treating them in that shape and then the consumer keeping them in that shape by the use of a firm foam former thus limiting the stressing of the conductor after treatment?

I buy hundreds of thousands of meters of OCC a year and cryo it all.  I have found, and so have my many clients who I design wire/cables for and do cryo for, that cryo makes a positive different on OCC.

Yes, IME, cryo does affect different copper in different ways.  ETP, OFC, OCC, etc, all respond differently,albeit, positively, IME.

As far as "shaping" the cables before cryo, don't stress (pun intended) about it.  The minor bending will not affect the changes that cryo has brought about.

I am too cranky (I an going for my audio curmudgeon title next year) to argue about any of this.  So, please no flames and accusatory "questions", I will not respond.  Life is too short, too precious. and far too precarious, for me to spend time arguing on forums.

Peace,

Lee

[cryoparts]

I would do that, and thank you for the gracious offer, but I need to have the tubes sent, too, to get to the $90.  In other words, the minimum cost is $90.

The tubes are probably the only thing I have room for in the load I am running this week as I am doing a giant load.

FWIW--make sure the cryo house you are thinking of using has experience doing audio gear, and does not use a "standard" profile for ramp down, soak time, and return to ambient.  A profile meant for tool steel is far too aggressive for audio gear.

Peace,

Lee

[Browntrout]

Thanks very much for sharing your experience Lee. 

[ctviggen]

I would do that, and thank you for the gracious offer, but I need to have the tubes sent, too, to get to the $90.  In other words, the minimum cost is $90.

The tubes are probably the only thing I have room for in the load I am running this week as I am doing a giant load.

FWIW--make sure the cryo house you are thinking of using has experience doing audio gear, and does not use a "standard" profile for ramp down, soak time, and return to ambient.  A profile meant for tool steel is far too aggressive for audio gear.

Peace,

Lee

They don't really say how they're doing it.  This is their general page:

http://www.nitrofreeze.com/cryogenic_treatment.html

This is their page directed to Audio:

http://www.nitrofreeze.com/2009/01/cryo-treating-audio-equipment-and.html

[cryoparts]

Thanks very much for sharing your experience Lee. 

My pleasure.

Lee

[cryoparts]

I would do that, and thank you for the gracious offer, but I need to have the tubes sent, too, to get to the $90.  In other words, the minimum cost is $90.

The tubes are probably the only thing I have room for in the load I am running this week as I am doing a giant load.

FWIW--make sure the cryo house you are thinking of using has experience doing audio gear, and does not use a "standard" profile for ramp down, soak time, and return to ambient.  A profile meant for tool steel is far too aggressive for audio gear.

Peace,

Lee

They don't really say how they're doing it.  This is their general page:

http://www.nitrofreeze.com/cryogenic_treatment.html

This is their page directed to Audio:

http://www.nitrofreeze.com/2009/01/cryo-treating-audio-equipment-and.html

I don't comment on competitors work, sorry.  I will say that if I didn't do/was unable to do my own cryo with my proprietary profile, I would use Charles at Cryogenic International, or Craig Goff at Kryophysics.

Peace,

Lee

[satfrat]

I also highly recommend Cryogenics International as that's where I've had most of my work done. But I personally feel that no one is as careful as Lee is in making sure the makeup materials of each piece is cryo tolerate and will tell you upfront if there's an issue with the makeup inside. Not all materials can tolerate the extreme cold, I lost a glued up Korean CDP that way. (I would have sold it anyways as I'm all PC Audio)
 
Cheers,
Robin