vibration question

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polar316

vibration question
« on: 2 Nov 2009, 11:01 pm »
What are those little pointed feet used on speakers and under electronics called? How much of a difference do these make using them on electronics? Is there more that I can do to reduce vibration transfer into the floor apart from just the spikes on the hardwood (I live on the 3rd floor of an apartment with very understanding neighbors but I would still like to give them a bit more of a break)?

I'm a new member but responses thus far have been excellent- thanks so much guys,
Zach

Wayner

Re: vibration question
« Reply #1 on: 2 Nov 2009, 11:29 pm »
Here is what the pointed feet do. Have you ever heard that a women in high heels weighs more then an elephant? That is the trick here. The weight of the object is transfered to 3 or 4 very small footprints, increasing the "pounds per square inch" equation, thus making the object "weigh more" then it really does, at least per square inch on the "points". Get it?

Wayner  :D

JLM

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Re: vibration question
« Reply #2 on: 3 Nov 2009, 12:36 am »
Zach,

Called spikes or footers, they concentrate the weight, thereby increasing the bearing stress (pounds per square inch).  This is only effective when the supporting material deforms, either elastically (meaning it will "rebound") or plastically (meaning you've made a permanent dent/puncture).  Without deformation there is nothing added to reduce resistance to lateral (or upward) forces.  Carpets/rugs are the best supporting materials to apply spikes as you normally penetrate the carpet/pad or rug and are bearing directly onto the hard floor below.  In this way the mass (weight) of the speaker is coupled downward with the floor.  Notice that I stated "coupled downward" as it is only by gravity that any coupling has occurred. 

Vibrations can be caused by mechanical transmission (through solid objects in contact), self vibration (yes even electronics and turntables/CD players vibrate some but not much), and via the air-borne sound waves (water too if you listen underwater  :wink:).  All vibrations are forms of mechanical energy.  Even the earth itself vibrates (at 1 - 2 Hz, well below what can be heard).

Objects that are less massive (smaller and/or weigh less) can vibrate more easily and at higher frequencies.  Stiffer materials are less prone to vibrate.  And objects that are more flexible in terms of how they are supported (cantilevered like a diving board or simply supported like a coffee table) will vibrate at lower frequencies (which counter intuitively takes more energy which is a good thing).  So you'd like your stereo system to be made of massive/stiff/flexibly supported objects. 

Microphonics describes the effect on the sound from small vibrations (typically in electronics).  This happens mostly from air-borne sound waves (the louder the worse) on exposed tubes (which are all mounted as cantilevers).  But it can also be easily heard from CD players due to their own self vibrations (which is why many audiophiles will add weights on top of the player).  Unfortunately foot steps or very loud sound waves (mechanical vibrations) on soft wooden floors can be heard via turntables.  This makes sense when you realize that vinyl playback is premised on a stylus vibrating as it tracks the grooves in the record.

But most vibrations relate to the speakers.  Since driver cones, domes, and diaphrams vibrate in and out, there is as much energy being imparted inside the cabinet as outside.  As most cabinets are wooden (relatively not stiff material) and not terribly massive they vibrate much more than you might know (some generate more sound pressure than the drivers themselves).  So this is a real issue for speaker designers. 

The best way to avoid this coupling to the floor is to use headphones.  The 2nd best way is to float the speakers above the floor (magnetic levitation, hanging the speaker from the ceiling, or use pillows).

lonewolfny42

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Re: vibration question
« Reply #3 on: 3 Nov 2009, 03:37 am »
polar316/Zach...

Welcome to AC.... :thumb:

You might take a look in the Herbie's Audio Lab circle here on AC.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=160.0

Their site is here....

http://herbiesaudiolab.home.att.net/

ZLS

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Re: vibration question
« Reply #4 on: 3 Nov 2009, 05:10 am »
    Obviously with the name Zach you are a highly intelligent person. 

    I use the analogy of a boxer throwing a punch.  The power of the punch comes not from the arms, but rather from the hips and the legs.  When the boxer legs are planted correctly and he has the proper balance the force behind the punch is much greater. 

    The same is true of your electronic components and your speakers.  Would your speakers sound as good if one corner was lifted of the ground? 

   There are many different theories and approaches to try to achieve the best result.  Some couple the component to the ground, some decouple the component to the ground.  The truth be told it is very system dependent. 

    I agree with Audio Circles undisputed Guru Lonewolfny42 that Herbie's Audio Lab is a great place to start. 

Browntrout

Re: vibration question
« Reply #5 on: 3 Nov 2009, 09:34 pm »
Hello Zack,
               Unfortunately what is best for the sound of your system is not necessarily best for your neighbours peace and quiet.
  The correct approach depends upon how your equipment is arranged (the placement of it) what sort of rack/shelving/support it is on and also on the flooring type.
  If you could tell us more about your room and setup (maybe a picture) then we can give the correct advice. The main thing I would consider is the use of insulation in the floor cavity to help reduce noise travelling through the floor, perhaps a rubber or plastic membrane.
  As for support for a cd player and DAC well the transport (tray and motor and lens) in your cd player creates the most mechanical vibrations together with the main transformer so locate these in your cd player (the transport is where the cd resides with the tray closed and the tranformer most likely were the center of gravity is when you pick it up (where the weight is).
  Now supporting the player under these two points and a third point (perhaps near where the mains cable enters at the back) is important for two reasons, firstly to allow the energy made by those parts (transport, tranformer) to leave the player as quickly as possible and secondly to avoid a minute rocking motion that exists in boxes that are supported by four legs that are not perfectly the same length.
  The material to use is carbon as it is light rigid and fiberous meaning energy travels thorugh it by choice rather than heavy flexible materials (the soft metal casing). Through this approach the vibrations are drawn away from senstive components in the player (operational amplifiers, capacitors, lens etc).
  Anyhow try supporting both the DAC and CD player on three points with something light and stiff and see if there is any improvement in the sound, it depends upon what the shelf is made of also but that's my first step advice. Take it easy, Ben. :thumb:

Scottdazzle

Re: vibration question
« Reply #6 on: 3 Nov 2009, 10:26 pm »
Zach,

Called spikes or footers, they concentrate the weight, thereby increasing the bearing stress (pounds per square inch).  This is only effective when the supporting material deforms, either elastically (meaning it will "rebound") or plastically (meaning you've made a permanent dent/puncture).  Without deformation there is nothing added to reduce resistance to lateral (or upward) forces.  Carpets/rugs are the best supporting materials to apply spikes as you normally penetrate the carpet/pad or rug and are bearing directly onto the hard floor below.  In this way the mass (weight) of the speaker is coupled downward with the floor.  Notice that I stated "coupled downward" as it is only by gravity that any coupling has occurred. 

Vibrations can be caused by mechanical transmission (through solid objects in contact), self vibration (yes even electronics and turntables/CD players vibrate some but not much), and via the air-borne sound waves (water too if you listen underwater  :wink:).  All vibrations are forms of mechanical energy.  Even the earth itself vibrates (at 1 - 2 Hz, well below what can be heard).

Objects that are less massive (smaller and/or weigh less) can vibrate more easily and at higher frequencies.  Stiffer materials are less prone to vibrate.  And objects that are more flexible in terms of how they are supported (cantilevered like a diving board or simply supported like a coffee table) will vibrate at lower frequencies (which counter intuitively takes more energy which is a good thing).  So you'd like your stereo system to be made of massive/stiff/flexibly supported objects. 

Microphonics describes the effect on the sound from small vibrations (typically in electronics).  This happens mostly from air-borne sound waves (the louder the worse) on exposed tubes (which are all mounted as cantilevers).  But it can also be easily heard from CD players due to their own self vibrations (which is why many audiophiles will add weights on top of the player).  Unfortunately foot steps or very loud sound waves (mechanical vibrations) on soft wooden floors can be heard via turntables.  This makes sense when you realize that vinyl playback is premised on a stylus vibrating as it tracks the grooves in the record.

But most vibrations relate to the speakers.  Since driver cones, domes, and diaphrams vibrate in and out, there is as much energy being imparted inside the cabinet as outside.  As most cabinets are wooden (relatively not stiff material) and not terribly massive they vibrate much more than you might know (some generate more sound pressure than the drivers themselves).  So this is a real issue for speaker designers. 

The best way to avoid this coupling to the floor is to use headphones.  The 2nd best way is to float the speakers above the floor (magnetic levitation, hanging the speaker from the ceiling, or use pillows).


JLM,

You should get an award for writing such a clear explanation for the layman (I include myself in that group).  Bravo!   :thumb:

Scott

JLM

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Re: vibration question
« Reply #7 on: 4 Nov 2009, 01:09 am »
Thanks Scott.  A degree in civil engineering, 8 years working as a structural engineer, hanging around guys who did dynamic (vibrational) analysis, 23 years communicating engineering concepts, and a professional engineering license all help.   :)

Since this is the Starting Block, I won't go on, except to say that I brought footers for my CDP, DAC, and monoblocks (mostly to satisfy an audiophile friend).  I spent about $20 for (16) 2 inch square blocks of cork/neoprene as dampening with different materials seemed to be viable and it wasn't expensive to try.  Also bought 3/4 inch birch boards to separate the concrete pavers (weights) from my CDP and DAC).  And have elevated my cables off the carpeted floor with 2x4's and Styrofoam cups.  I can't hear any difference, but I'm 53 and only have above average hearing/audio listening skills.  And I don't listen at high sound pressure (volume) levels.  But now I have a hair shirt looking audio system and can be let back into the "audiophile club".   :roll:
« Last Edit: 4 Nov 2009, 10:37 am by JLM »

Browntrout

Re: vibration question
« Reply #8 on: 4 Nov 2009, 09:45 pm »
With no wish to offend can I question the line where you have said that stiffer materials tend to vibrate less? I would have thought that a stiff structure would vibrate more easily than a flexible one as this would be the only way kinetic energy could manifest itself as opposed to the flexible structure wobbling but not strictly vibrating? I might well have taken the wrong end of your stick? :D

Wayner

Re: vibration question
« Reply #9 on: 4 Nov 2009, 09:54 pm »
Or you could mass load your speakers with weights and see what happens.

Wayner

JLM

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Re: vibration question
« Reply #10 on: 5 Nov 2009, 11:23 am »
Browntrout,

Vibrations are deflections, which are directly proportional to the material's Young's modulus of elasticity.  Just to give you a feel of the range of this factor, wood is roughly 1,100 psi (pounds/square inch) and steel is 29,000,000 psi.

And vibrations are proportional to the material thickness and the unsupported length each to the 4th power (square of the square).

Structurally, vibrations are affected by how they are supported.  Using a given length of a simple beam with a uniform pressure loading across its entire length as an example:

The maximum deflection for the beam if it is simply resting on top of supports at each end is 5/384.

The maximum deflection for the beam if it is cantilevered (like a diving board)  is 1/8.

The maximum deflection for the beam if it is cantilevered at both ends (like a diving board, but "clamped" on both ends)  is 1/384.

Browntrout

Re: vibration question
« Reply #11 on: 10 Nov 2009, 11:44 am »
I think vibrations are not deflections that are directly proportional to the materials Youngs modulus of elasticity in this case. I think it's more complicated than that.
« Last Edit: 10 Nov 2009, 03:50 pm by Browntrout »

JLM

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Re: vibration question
« Reply #12 on: 11 Nov 2009, 12:30 pm »
Yes, it is more complicated than I presented here in the Starting Block.

No, vibrations are simply dynamic deflections.  But you are welcomed to hold to whatever beliefs you like as long as you remain lawful.


Simply adding weight increases the energy required to excite vibrations.

werd

Re: vibration question
« Reply #13 on: 17 Nov 2009, 06:21 pm »
hello folks

I like this example here shown by 1940 Tacoma bridge failure. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6939278368247493737#docid=1123659147913700443

It's highly exaggerated eg. but it does justice to the concerns of untreated resonance and what can happen if left to  build up. You would never see anything like this in your gear obviousily but the highly sensitive devices can suffer from resonance in somewhat the same fashion. Mech resonance and air borne resonance can easily cause stress on devices in the millivolt range. It manifests itself as distortion (jitter). Good stands with lots of mass along with heavy platforms reduce  lingering resonance substantially.