Reviewing The Reviewers

SF · « **Reply #20 on:** 30 Oct 2009, 10:56 pm »

Good questions James;

I would use reviewer reviews accompanied by measurements as the first-pass.

I would only look at products that, neither explicitly nor implicitly (esp. in measurement section), mention weaknesses that I cannot live with.

The local audition would obviously be a subset of above, only if available. I have, however, the luxury of living in Toronto where good gear is usually available.

In the final round, I would only chose the equipment to which I have personally listened.

In the answer to your second question, if I had come across an appropriate negative review of Bryston in my primary search, I would not audition it.

Good discussion. It almost begs the question why reviewers review (based on most responses thus far).

Laundrew · « **Reply #21 on:** 30 Oct 2009, 11:14 pm »

Quote from: James Tanner on 30 Oct 2009, 10:55 pm

Hi laundrew,

There are many people saying that print magazines are on their way out or at least a major house cleaning.

I'm an old guy so I still like the hard copy of my music as well as my reading material but I realize the 'times they are a changing'

james

Hello James,

I am the same way with respect to books. While the tide seems to be changing to the Electronic Book Format, I still prefer a "corporeal" book format (I want to hold it, smell it and feel the texture of its pages). In many of my text books, I enjoy inscribing notes or formulae on the pages - I personify the book this way, it also enables the book to evolve. Let us not forget about the pleasing aesthetics of a few well filled bookshelves. And what about the spontaneity of picking a book off of the shelve and begin reading it.

As I have a few very old technical books, I often marvel about the history of the book itself - how many people has it passed through?

Be well...

toronto416 · « **Reply #22 on:** 31 Oct 2009, 01:40 pm »

Reviewers attend the same trade shows as audio manufacturers, distributors and dealers. They develop relatonships within the industry as well as friendships, and I am sure that these factor into what products are selected for review and how they may be perceived. Much of the review process is subjective, and maybe there is a sort of 'placebo effect' that makes a unit sound better to a reviewer if he happens to like the manufacturer or distributor that supplied the unit.

Let me try an analogy regarding subjectivity and the review. If a woman who has spent the night with you says that was wonderful, she may mean it, she may like you, but she may not have a lot of experience to draw on, but she speaks from the heart - she believes what she is saying. Her opinion is like that of John Q public on an audio forum talking about his equipment. If a professional escort tells you that you are good in bed, you know that she has much comparative experience, but the fundamental question is, do you believe her?

That said, great products do receive good reviews because they ARE great products, but not so great products also receive great reviews - so how are we to tell them apart?

Regards,

Mark

James Tanner · « **Reply #23 on:** 31 Oct 2009, 01:59 pm »

Mark -I love your analogy!

james

mclsound · « **Reply #24 on:** 31 Oct 2009, 02:44 pm »

LOL LOL LOL LOL
That is beatiful LOL LOL
soooooooooo true.....BUT dont forget some escorts are $100 and some are $5000
I believe that most products under $1000,well you cant really go wrong,to a point....BUT $1000-$20,000,there can be a huge difference and these reviewers always end with ""excellent product"" ""If you can afford it,Buy it""

Stu Pitt · « **Reply #25 on:** 2 Nov 2009, 01:02 am »

I think people take audio reviews too seriously. The reviewers are people with preferences, just like everyone else. Most of them that I read have some sort of reference system that's pretty much the same every time I read a review. Even if their referencesystem changes a lot, shouldn't the reference ulitmately be live music? I guess that's another conversation.

People love it when their gear gets favorable reviews, and say the same reviewer doesn't know what they're talking about when another piece they own gets an unfavorable review. Bad reviews actually do exist. I've only read a few though.

The owner reviews in a way are even more biased than the pro reviews. People love their gear. The arguement could be made that they're saying what they're saying to justify a major purchase to themselves or to make them feel like they've found that diamond in the rough that everyone's looking for.

The way I look at it, who cares if everyone says my system sounds like crap? I like it. Isn't that enough? Its not like if a mag gave my Rega Apollo a bad review it would start to sound bad. On the flip side, who cares if everyone loves my system? That doesn't make it sound any better to my ears.

In regards to reviewers, its their job, but is it their 'day job' or more of an extra money thing?

Every magazine has its subscribers that say the reviewers are biased. Read Motor Trend and see how many readers complain about BMW getting great reviews because they advertise more than some others. Maybe BMW just makes great cars? The Cigar mags have readers complaining about the same stuff.

vegasdave · « **Reply #26 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 04:12 am »

I agree.

ricko01 · « **Reply #27 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 05:15 am »

When I was getting my current system together (which will now not be changing for a long time), I would read lots of magazines, looking for likely candidates.

As many have mentioned, very few magazines give bad reviews. When editors and reviewers are asked why, a typical response is that they vet what they review (so that they don?t waste time on poor products), so by definition only good products get reviewed.

Webzines tend to suffer the same amount of "goodness" as very few also giving bad reviews.

For myself, a major part of gear selection (given that there really are lots of good products out there) comes down to "reviewing the manufactures". I do NOT purchase gear from companies that exhibit continual changes to their product roadmap.

This typically has language similar to the following to justify why your 6 month old product is now out of date.... "our new model improves on last years model by have increased internal damping, we changed critical capacitors in the output circuit and made some changes to the power supply".

Why in Gods name didn?t you do that to LAST years model.... what kind of crappy product engineers do have that couldn?t have worked these changes into LAST years model?

Design it the best you can 1st time... don?t two-time me and my money.

Hence the reason why I have several Bryston components... not only are they in the top tier of their product categories but I know that every effort was made in the design/test phases to make the best product first time up.

vegasdave · « **Reply #28 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 03:05 pm »

Quote from: ricko01 on 3 Nov 2009, 05:15 am

Hence the reason why I have several Bryston components... not only are they in the top tier of their product categories but I know that every effort was made in the design/test phases to make the best product first time up.

Zero · « **Reply #29 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 03:58 pm »

I really don't want to come across as self serving, but while it's been brought up a few times - I gotta say that not all reviews come out positive. In fact, my latest review on some McIntosh gear (found on the link at the bottom of my post) is not exactly beaming with praise. I also recently just sent back a $14,000 set of loudspeakers from a different company because, quite frankly, they sucked for the money. You won't see a negative review on them because no review will be written. The latter decision is also a contributing factor as to why you read so few outright negative product reviews.

mjosef · « **Reply #30 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 05:10 pm »

Quote

...
Design it the best you can 1st time... don?t two-time me and my money.

Hence the reason why I have several Bryston components... not only are they in the top tier of their product categories but I know that every effort was made in the design/test phases to make the best product first time up....

But but but...ummm, doesn't Bryston also have "improved" version in some model lines? Like ST or SST...etc etc.

Might be standing too close to the mountain my friend.

vegasdave · « **Reply #31 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 06:13 pm »

Quote from: Zero on 3 Nov 2009, 03:58 pm

I really don't want to come across as self serving, but while it's been brought up a few times - I gotta say that not all reviews come out positive. In fact, my latest review on some McIntosh gear (found on the link at the bottom of my post) is not exactly beaming with praise. I also recently just sent back a $14,000 set of loudspeakers from a different company because, quite frankly, they sucked for the money. You won't see a negative review on them because no review will be written. The latter decision is also a contributing factor as to why you read so few outright negative product reviews.

Which McIntosh unit? I read the one on the integrated amp, and that was a good review...

James Tanner · « **Reply #32 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 07:06 pm »

Quote from: mjosef on 3 Nov 2009, 05:10 pm

Quote
...
Design it the best you can 1st time... don?t two-time me and my money.

Hence the reason why I have several Bryston components... not only are they in the top tier of their product categories but I know that every effort was made in the design/test phases to make the best product first time up....

But but but...ummm, doesn't Bryston also have "improved" version in some model lines? Like ST or SST...etc etc.

Might be standing too close to the mountain my friend.

From a manufacturers viewpoint changes always come along but over the many years we have been doing this the time between 'meaningful' upgrades usually runs about 5 to 7 years.

james

konut · « **Reply #33 on:** 3 Nov 2009, 11:09 pm »

The thing about reading any review, be it professional or amateur, internet or print, is you have to be able to read between the lines. This is a skill that needs to be learned. Some pick it up easier than others. The 1st thing is, who is this guy? How old? In the industry? Just an enthusiast? In a related profession? The answer to these questions gives a basis for where the individual might be coming from or whether you even should pay attention to what is being written. 2nd, look at the system in the context of the reviewed component. Does it make sense? There was a link to a review of a Mark and Daniels speaker awhile ago on AC. These are notoriously inefficient speakers and the reviewer was putting them in a system wholly inappropriate for these speakers. Clues like this will give one the facts needed to put a review in context. 3rd, is the guy being paid? In this situation, anything short of an out and out raving endorsement will be a clue that not everything is copacetic. After all, in this situation advertising dollars are at stake, or the prospect of future advertising dollars, and diplomacy is the order of the day. I am reminded of the great Julian Hirsch, an engineer and reviewer for the now defunct Stereo Review magazine. Even though he was an outside contractor, testing electrical specifications for the magazine, he was sensitive to the position he was in. When commenting on a preamp he said "Of all the preamps we've auditioned, this is one of them." While not an outright derogatory statement, anyone who is paying attention should get the meaning.

ricko01 · « **Reply #34 on:** 4 Nov 2009, 06:39 pm »

Quote from: mjosef on 3 Nov 2009, 05:10 pm

Quote
...
Design it the best you can 1st time... don?t two-time me and my money.

Hence the reason why I have several Bryston components... not only are they in the top tier of their product categories but I know that every effort was made in the design/test phases to make the best product first time up....

But but but...ummm, doesn't Bryston also have "improved" version in some model lines? Like ST or SST...etc etc.

Might be standing too close to the mountain my friend.

Bryston do model upgrades... but the time difference between the initial delivery of the ST and the SST is several years. Or look at the BP25 verses the BP26.

Of course Bryston shouldnt stand still when it comes to product enhancements but when changes do occur they are well considered and significant... not a minor tweak every year just to stay "in the news" or potentially playing on audiophile neurosis which demands you must have the latest and greatest (and keeps the manufactures bank balance ticking over)

DustyC · « **Reply #35 on:** 4 Nov 2009, 07:33 pm »

Quote from: toronto416 on 31 Oct 2009, 01:40 pm

Reviewers attend the same trade shows as audio manufacturers, distributors and dealers. They develop relatonships within the industry as well as friendships, and I am sure that these factor into what products are selected for review and how they may be perceived. Much of the review process is subjective, and maybe there is a sort of 'placebo effect' that makes a unit sound better to a reviewer if he happens to like the manufacturer or distributor that supplied the unit.

Let me try an analogy regarding subjectivity and the review. If a woman who has spent the night with you says that was wonderful, she may mean it, she may like you, but she may not have a lot of experience to draw on, but she speaks from the heart - she believes what she is saying. Her opinion is like that of John Q public on an audio forum talking about his equipment. If a professional escort tells you that you are good in bed, you know that she has much comparative experience, but the fundamental question is, do you believe her?

That said, great products do receive good reviews because they ARE great products, but not so great products also receive great reviews - so how are we to tell them apart?

Regards,

Mark

Oh so true Toronto!

The mags don't seem to do this anymore but when a product is passed around to a few reviewers on staff and they ALL like the product, that catches my interest, or (as mentioned previously) a veteran reviewer takes a liking to a sample.
For example, HP was surprised that the Magnepan system he heard awhile back was powered by the 28 amp. He requested a sample and commented favorably. If I had the scratch it would be on my list for audition. I would guess that the 28 has been a strong seller because of that review.

95Dyna · « **Reply #36 on:** 4 Nov 2009, 07:52 pm »

I agree with konut's assessment. You don't see many negative reviews because the community of audio reviewers seems to adhere to what most of our mother's used to tell us, "if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all". It is very true that you can read between the lines that a review, although not derogatory, is less than complimentary without being overtly so. One example here is the final comment in a review saying, "I very much enjoyed my time with the xxxxxxx CD player". This is a very tepid sign off in my estimation. I look for trends and patterns among multiple reviewers. When you have a disparate lot of reviewers all saying the same thing about a product chances are it is at least close to true. Bryston is a good example here with the squared series amps, BDA-1 and BCD-1. There are many non Bryston examples as well. I think if you keep these things in mind using reviews to play a significant role in the decision process is a worthwhile endeavor. For those of us not blessed with dealers closeby it is even more important. I'm in the process of implementing some major upgrades almost completely from reviews and so far so good.

konut · « **Reply #37 on:** 4 Nov 2009, 09:19 pm »

In the case of the BDA-1, I saw not only how the measurements drew universal praise, but how many reviews where the reviewer purchased the review sample. What is it, 70% James? That is incredible! Thats why I bought 1.

ian.ameline · « **Reply #38 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 03:59 am »

Quote from: James Tanner on 3 Nov 2009, 07:06 pm

From a manufacturers viewpoint changes always come along but over the many years we have been doing this the time between 'meaningful' upgrades usually runs about 5 to 7 years.

james

You guys at Bryston are certainly predictable and reliable. As I already have my BDA-1 and SST2, it means another 5 to 7 years before I start itching to upgrade

. I'll plan my finances accordingly.

-- Ian.

turkey · « **Reply #39 on:** 10 Nov 2009, 07:47 pm »

Quote from: James Tanner on 30 Oct 2009, 04:42 pm

Hi All

One question I have been meaning to ask many of you is how you feel about reviews and reviewers in general.

Do magazines like Stereophile and Absolute Sound still sway your decisions or do you place more credence in 'user reviews'?

james

I don't rely on reviews very much anymore. The two magazines you mentioned come across as little more than advertising brochures.

Once most reviewers started talking about fancy wire, power cords, bingobongo disks, holy water, and all that stuff in every review, I decided they didn't have much to offer to me. It's very widespread, and at this point I just don't even bother reading most reviews.

On audio electronics, I am finding that I lean closer and closer to Peter Aczel's point of view as given in The Audio Critic. (I wish that David Rich was still actively reviewing equipment at TAC. His reviews were always very interesting.)

I used some Bryston equipment years ago in the studio, and seeing how well it held up is more persuasive than 1000s of reviews anyway.