To step up or not -- a brainstorm.

woodsyi · « **on:** 28 Oct 2009, 02:30 pm »

I don't need another piece of gear.
I don't need another piece of gear.
I don't need another piece of gear.
I don't need another piece of gear.

Having said that, I have a MM phono section on my preamp just being wasted. All my pick ups are LOMC and I am thinking of getting a stand alone step up to work with low internal impedance MCs -- mostly Koetsu. This would go with SME IV arm. What transformer would you recommend?

macrojack · « **Reply #1 on:** 28 Oct 2009, 02:54 pm »

Too bad, Rim. I just sold my Cotter MK2L. It would have been a great choice for you.
By the way, since you said transformer, does that mean you do not want a MC preamp? I have a Klyne SK2A in my closet that does not need to stay there.

I'd be willing to return a favor you did for me and let you try it out for a while.

JackD201 · « **Reply #2 on:** 28 Oct 2009, 03:01 pm »

I use a Koetsu SUT with my Jade Platinum into the MM section of my Lamm LP2. While the Lamm's internal SUT via the MC input was good, I felt there was a lack of gain. I was expecting the MM to add just that and only that. Surprisingly the added gain wasn't all that much BUT what I did get was an expanded soundstage that almost matched my XV-1s' without changing the Koetsu tonal palette. The Koetsu step up transformer is pricey and didn't work well with non Koetsu carts but was magic with a platinum Koetsu. I would highly recommend it.

While I am a Lamm dealer I am not in any way connected with Koetsu.

woodsyi · « **Reply #3 on:** 28 Oct 2009, 03:18 pm »

I don't know much about the Klyne unit, Tom. I have phonostages (Aesthetix Io, Art Audio Vinyl1, SWLP, Vista Phono1). It's just that I have MM section on my current preamp that is going unused. I don't know anything about the MM card on the MBL preamp but I would assume it's decent -- thus the idea of mating it with a SUT to find out what it sounds like. Does your Klyne already have RIAA adjustment built in?

woodsyi · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 Oct 2009, 03:33 pm »

Jack,

You are from over on that side of the world. What do you know about those Japanese SUTs like Denons, Yamamoto and Audio Technicas?

macrojack · « **Reply #5 on:** 28 Oct 2009, 03:46 pm »

Woodsyi - I may be telling you something you know but a transformer is passive. The Klyne is an active step-up device with amplification on board. Two different ways to skin a cat.
My Klyne is not a phono stage but rather a pre pre-amplifier. It will amplify the signal from your Koetsu and pass it on to your MBL MM stage. The SK2A has an outboard power supply, adjustable input, and high frequency contour adjustment. I looked on line and it appears to be worth $650. This unit has the original box, owner's manual and wooden stylus for selecting the little piano key switches. It was made from 1983 til ? so I can't really tell you the age. I've had it for 4-5 years and probably used it for no more than a year or two. Don't know much about it prior but it looks as if it has been treated well.
Stan Klyne is legendary for superior workmanship and exceptional sounding gear.

woodsyi · « **Reply #6 on:** 28 Oct 2009, 03:54 pm »

Then let's go for it. Send it to me and I will try it out. I was just looking at Jim's Piccolo as well.

macrojack · « **Reply #7 on:** 28 Oct 2009, 04:10 pm »

O.K. Just so you know, all Klyne stuff is solid state. This item is venerable and well respected but I haven't a clue how it compares to that ultra stuff you mentioned owning. However, it's small and light enough to ship cheaply and easily, so I'll get it off tomorrow morning. I'm headed for the dentist in a few minutes now.

I'll be interested to see how you think it stacks up.

Best to PM me your address -- I don't think I still have it.

BobM · « **Reply #8 on:** 28 Oct 2009, 04:18 pm »

I know someone who has a copper S&B TX103 based step up and he prefers Jim's Piccolo to it. definitely worth checking out, especially for the low cost.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #9 on:** 28 Oct 2009, 04:56 pm »

Klyne stuff is legendary...you're probably in for a treat from Tom on that one, woodsyi.

Do a search for Klyne online and you'll be impressed in advance

I have a Leach dual mono, battery powered stepup when I want to hear low output cartridges and it's divine, too. I don't sense extra noise when adding that layer to the phono chain - good.

John

robinje · « **Reply #10 on:** 28 Oct 2009, 06:11 pm »

I am using a Graham Slee Elevator EXP. While not a transformer, it is an active gain device with 21.5dB (I think) of gain with no equalization applied. It is desiged to accomodate LOMC with a MM phono stage. The unit is super quiet and has a slew of cartridge loading options right on the front panel. It is physically small and is powered by an external high quality power supply. I know you mentioned a transformer, but this is another option to consider. I like mine a lot...

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #11 on:** 28 Oct 2009, 06:28 pm »

The SUTs offered by DIY Hi Fi Supply are recommeded. You will need to source a suitable chassis and wire it yourself.

http://www.diyhifisupply.com/catalog/86

woodsyi · « **Reply #12 on:** 28 Oct 2009, 07:51 pm »

Nels,

Can you say more about the Silk Supermalloy SQ Annealed Core MC Step Up Transformers and how they sound?

JackD201 · « **Reply #13 on:** 28 Oct 2009, 10:47 pm »

Quote from: woodsyi on 28 Oct 2009, 03:33 pm

Jack,

You are from over on that side of the world. What do you know about those Japanese SUTs like Denons, Yamamoto and Audio Technicas?

The crowd over here are into vintage step ups that rode in with the idler revival but I have seen a Denon or two. I haven't come across any Yamamotos though I do have a Matsudaira M.Y. Sonic Labs which I can't get to integrate right now because I can't isolate the ground loop.

I'll try and borrow what I can and report back. On your side of the world I hear Tron makes step ups and that they're supposed to be very good if still somewhat of a secret.

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #14 on:** 28 Oct 2009, 11:23 pm »

Quote from: woodsyi on 28 Oct 2009, 07:51 pm

Nels,

Can you say more about the Silk Supermalloy SQ Annealed Core MC Step Up Transformers and how they sound?

Woodsyi,

Those are the SUTs I have, running that into one of the Bella Extreme Bella Max phono stages, then onto a Juicy Music Peach line stage. The power amplifier is a Bella Extreme 3205 Signature MkII. (In other words, and all tube system.) Speakers are Salk Songtowers. The cartridge is a Dynavector DV20XL (.3mV) with a Soundsmith ruby cantilever and line contact stylus.

I cannot imagine ever going back to active MC step up amplification. First, the difference in noise between these SUTs and an active stage is like the difference between night and day. The transformers are completely silent. They do require quite a bit of break in, and I am not sure break in is complete. These do not subtly break in, they seem to break in in stages- massive improvements all at once, until the next massive improvement (this has happened twice so far.) If they don't change from where they are now, I am thrilled, but we audio junkies always seem to want more, don't we? BTW, they are not impressive at all when they are brand new- they need time.

It may have just the slightest tilt towards the midrange. Bass is tight, but a shade dry. What I like best is low level retrieval and naturalness, due to the extremely low noise floor. The other big difference- gobs of air and ambience. Some albums so completely different it is as if I am listening to a different (and better) mix. Highs are very smooth an extended. Dynamics are another place where this set up shines- again I believe due to the lowered noise floor.

This isn't the most expensive set up I have owned (by a long shot) but my favorite- by the same long shot.

I hope this helps.

woodsyi · « **Reply #15 on:** 29 Oct 2009, 12:47 pm »

Thanks for the additional information, Nels. It's an intriguing project. Should the case be anything special in terms of shielding and did you just use RCAs for input and output?

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #16 on:** 29 Oct 2009, 01:17 pm »

The transformers are shielded as shipped, so no special chassis is required. I have done nothing special regarding shielding and feel no need to do so. The transformer just wires up with RCA jacks plus a chassis ground, and a switch for gain/loading.

GBB · « **Reply #17 on:** 29 Oct 2009, 02:39 pm »

I'm also a huge fan of step up transformers and recommend them highly.
I use the no longer available copper S&B TX-103. You can read about them here:
http://www.stevens-billington.co.uk/page103.htm

There are a lot of interesting options out there these days. In addition to the Silk transformers that Nels likes, the latest transformers from Lundahl are getting good press. The folks over at the TNT webzine really liked the LL1933 ( http://tnt-audio.com/accessories/mc_2xfr_e.html ). The US distributor for Lundahl, K&K audio prefers the LL1931 but they both are probably excellent. K&K offers a step up kit using the LL1931 if you want to experiment - http://www.kandkaudio.com/phonostage.html

I've also had good luck with vintage step up transformers. If you're feeling adventurous then you can go to ebay and find vintage transformers that can sound surprisingly good. For example, old Altec transformers, such as the 4722 or the 15095 can be surprisingly good. With these vintage transformers, I've found that loading is critical and you want to load both the primary and the secondary. What does that mean? Well the 15095 can be wired as 600:15K (5x gain) or 150:15000 (10x gain). When you plug it into the MM input of a phono preamp, the secondary is automatically loaded with 47k ohms. I experimented with a 15095 wired for 5x gain and a Benz Glider cartridge. The 47K load gets reflected back to the cartridge as 47k / 25 = 1.88k. This turned out to be too high for the Benz and gave a sound that as a bit tizzy and bass shy. Lowering the loading on the secondary from 47k to 20k-30k gave the right tonal balance but it wasn't nearly as transparent as I had hoped. Putting the equivalent load on the primary side was a revelation. I kept the 47k on the secondary and then added another 2k on the primary side. This gave an effective load to the cartridge of 47k/25 in parallel with 2k = 969 ohms. This had a good tonal balance and was much more transparent.

Net: I highly recommend step up transformers but be prepared for some serious tweaking to dial them in.

---Gary

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #18 on:** 30 Oct 2009, 01:55 am »

Hi Nels,

Could you please give a bit more info about what's involved in making you own SUT? Is it really as simple as connecting the trannies to the RCAs at both ends and adding a pot along the way. Lots of detail is much appreciated!

(been wanting to make one for a long time)

analogmart · « **Reply #19 on:** 1 Nov 2009, 11:27 am »

Quote from: Ericus Rex on 30 Oct 2009, 01:55 am

Hi Nels,

Could you please give a bit more info about what's involved in making you own SUT? Is it really as simple as connecting the trannies to the RCAs at both ends and adding a pot along the way. Lots of detail is much appreciated!

(been wanting to make one for a long time)

Hi Rex,
you can buy silk finished product from here
www.sacthailand.com or
www.diyhifisupply.com with different chassis.