[DavidS]

Usual many paths that take you to a good place.  I am learning as I read more but read yesterday on a AC dac thread that usb dacs will not get you to where you want to go.  I am running an unmodded squeezebox (have modded power supply) to an Audio Note dac that only receives digital connection.  Also have a dac magic with usb feed that clearly doesn't sound as good as the squeezebox / audio note dac combo but based on price I would be disappointed if it did.  So with my limited knowledge I think there are 4 ways to go:
1.  high end sound card and out
2.  usb out to dac and hifi
3.  music server to dac or straight to preamp
4.  firewire or some other connection straight to dac

What is the path to discless audio enlightenment?

[JimJ]

I am learning as I read more but read yesterday on a AC dac thread that usb dacs will not get you to where you want to go.

Depends on the DAC

[K Shep]

What is the path to discless audio enlightenment?

For me it is USB out to Ayre USB DAC to Hi-Fi.

You said you are learning as you read, I'd recommend learning about Asynchronous transfer mode which is available in a few DACs currently.  You may read about it here:  http://www.ayre.com/pdf/Ayre_USB_DAC_White_Paper.pdf

I am sorry you were misinformed that a USB DAC won't get you where you want to go.  My USB DAC has made my listening room and my audio experience convenient and enlightened.

Kirk

[JLM]

Welcome to the audiophile races, and may the last audiophile (liar) standing (with money) win.     There's always something newer/better, so you can never "win".  The hobby aspect of being an audiophile involves the hunt for equipment that synergizes into a system that delivers the particular sound reproduction quality(ies) that you value.

Some of the more intriguing, exotic, expensive, "out there" concepts relating to discless digital sources are solid state (not hard) drives and I2S or even firewire versus USB connections to your DAC.  As mentioned above the DAC plays a huge factor in the overall sound.  Check out Empire Audio circle below for some of the leading edge thinking.

IMO most audiophiles miss the boat right off the start by not having a good room (decent size, close to correct proportions, with appropriate finished/treatments) to listen in.  And many audiophile have blinders on in regards to one aspect or another of audio while missing the importance of good/full range loudspeakers.  These are the foundations of any respectable audio system (unless you punt and go with a good set of headphones).

Happy hunting.

[JEaton]

What is the path to discless audio enlightenment?

Great question, but it is the right question?

My take is that once you rip your library to a lossless file format, if you do it right, you should never need to do it again. 

Your most important asset by far, no matter which path you choose, will be the file library that you rip from your CDs or download from online digital audio sellers.  You'll end up putting (easily) hundreds, if not thousands of hours into the ripping and tagging and organizing of that library.  Guard your investment of time at all costs.  Make sure you have backups of your library.  Make sure your backups are good.  Make sure you know what you're doing.

After that, the path you take to playing your library is secondary.  It's like buying an amp, saying "eh, I'm not impressed" and then buying another.  The playback of your library is passing.  You can change it tomorrow like you change your socks.

[doctorcilantro]

QFT.

Your most important asset by far, no matter which path you choose, will be the file library that you rip from your CDs or download from online digital audio sellers.  You'll end up putting (easily) hundreds, if not thousands of hours into the ripping and tagging and organizing of that library.  Guard your investment of time at all costs.

I won't say how, only it wasn't my fault, but somehow my 4TB of images and audio were delated last month. Everything was backed up. I started in 1998-99, still not done CDs I have had since then. Yes, I did have some coronary issues during the restore process, even that can be taxing.

[srb]

What is the path to discless audio enlightenment?

For me it is USB out to Ayre USB DAC to Hi-Fi.

You said you are learning as you read, I'd recommend learning about Asynchronous transfer mode which is available in a few DACs currently.  You may read about it here:  http://www.ayre.com/pdf/Ayre_USB_DAC_White_Paper.pdf

I am sorry you were misinformed that a USB DAC won't get you where you want to go.  My USB DAC has made my listening room and my audio experience convenient and enlightened.

Kirk

As you said DavidS, there are many paths.  Both USB and Firewire DACs can get you there, but the higher price of admission of the top contenders may deter you. Here is a partial list of the current overachievers in the USB/Firewire arena.
 
USB DACS
Ayre QB-9 USB DAC - $2500
This is Kirk's path and an excellent choice.  It uses Streamlength Asynchronous Mode USB code licensed from Wavelength and a Wolfson DAC (24/96).
 
Wavelength Brick USB DAC - $1750 - $2000
The Brick uses Wavelength's proprietary Streamlength Asynchronous Mode USB code, a TDA1543N Non-Oversampling DAC and 12AU7/ECC82 reactor follower tube output. (16/44.1)
 
Wavelength Coescant USB DAC - $3500
The Coescant uses Wavelength's proprietary Streamlength Asynchronous Mode USB code and 6GM8/ECC86 tube transformer output.  It uses interchangeable DAC boards, either the TDA1543N Non-Oversampling DAC board (16/44.1) or the Wolfson-based DAC board (24/96)
 
Wavelength Crimson USB DAC - $7500 - $9000
The Crimson uses Wavelength's proprietary Streamlength Asynchronous Mode USB code and individual Directly Heated Triode tube output for each channel.  It uses interchangeable DAC boards, either the TDA1543N Non-Oversampling DAC board (16/44.1), the Wolfson-based DAC board (24/96) or the ESS Sabre32 DAC board (24/96) (+$1500).
 
Empricial Audio USB Overdrive DAC - $3000 - $3700
Uses reclocking circuitry for a low jitter USB interface (same USB interface as the Off-Ramp 3 USB Interface), a NOS DAC and a discrete Class A output stage (24/96).
 
FIREWIRE DACS
Weiss Firewire DAC2 - $4000
Weiss of Switzerland's DAC2 combines several signal reclocking schemes for extremely high jitter attenuation.  The Dac2 is the pro-sound version.  (24/192).
 
Weiss Firewire Minerva DAC - $5000
The Minerva is the home audiophile version of the DAC2, slightly tweaked.  (24/192)
 
Metric Halo Firewire ULN-8 - $6000
The ULN-8 is a pro-sound 8 channel DAC (and ADC) with features more intended for multi-channel recording and playback in a studio setting, but many users put this one at the top of the list for 2-channel DAC playback when compared with pricey audiophile DACs. (24/192).  Mac only.
 
Amarra Firewire Player 4 - $6500
A rebadged and slightly modified Metric Halo ULN-8 (minus microphone preamps and modified EQ) by Sonic Studio for use with their Amarra Computer Music Player software (24/192).  Mac only.
 
This is not to say that other DACs will not deliver great sound.  But suffice it to say that the owner's of these DACs are probably not looking to upgrade anytime soon!
 
Back to Kirk's recommendation of the Ayre QB-9.  Based on the examples in the above list, the Ayre looks to me to be a "best buy".  But it is still out of my budget (and perhaps yours), and therefore I wait in the wings for some new offerings I can afford.
 
Firewire + ESS Sabre32 + Discrete Output Stage for $1000, anyone?
 
Steve

[doctorcilantro]

Good recs - Wavelength Proton is no slouch either.

[srb]

Good recs - Wavelength Proton is no slouch either.

Didn't quite know what to make of the "Priced from $900" Proton (24/96).  It is USB powered, but charges a LiIon battery to power the DAC chip.  No mention of the run time on battery power.  Or how one might compare it to the $2K - $3K Brick/Coescant.
 
Not a lot of specs on the Wavelength site.
 
Virtue Audio is coming out with an affordable ESS Sabre DAC, NuForce with a high-end DAC just over $1K and Eastern Electric with an ESS Sabre32 9018 DAC with true tube output stage @ ~$750.
 
Steve

[firedog]

USB out is very dependent on how you connect to your USB DAC and the PC setup. Lots of settings in the PC/Software need to be tweaked to get the best sound from the PC: not using K-mixer, setting sample rates correctly, etc.
i
Take a look at the Empircal Audio Off-Ramp (external usb "sound card"). This or some other similar dedicated USB units will make your DAC sound much better.

Also see Benchmark Audio wiki: http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Gives tips for setting up optimal USB audio on MAC and PC.

[K Shep]

srb,

Thank you for the comprehensive list and for taking the time. 

Kirk

[DavidS]

yes thanks for the great list and quick overviews.  Seems like the technology is changing, evolving fast.  Except for the squeezebox I have been mostly sitting on the fence and watching and reading about it ... at some point it will be good to make the plunge.  The Eyre is certainly getting closer price wise. 

Will I get compareable sound using a product like the offramp with my older non-usb audio note dac or do you think this asynch usb in a new league.

[srb]

Will I get compareable sound using a product like the offramp with my older non-usb audio note dac or do you think this asynch usb in a new league.

That's a good question.  My partial list was only single-box solutions, interface & DAC in one box.
 
I would think that the Off Ramp would be a step in the right direction, but if you take it to it's optimum level by adding the Ultraclock option, you are at $1500 just for USB to S/PDIF or AES/EBU conversion.  (There is an I2S output, but only a few DACs have that input).
 
My computer is a multi-purpose HTPC.  On my USB bus, I have 2 - RF keyboards, a Bluetooth mouse, printer, iPod synch and flash drives.
 
My Firewire bus is lonely and unused, and I would prefer to dedicate it to my audio.  That being said, although many desktops and laptops have Firewire, many do not, and the DAC marketing push will be toward the USB side to produce DACs that can connect to any computer.
 
Steve

[Will2]

Steve put a great list together but they were out of my target price range too.  I've done more reading than listening seeing as I live in Bermuda so auditioning is out of the question, but this is what I came up with http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/buffalo.aspx.  From what I read and people who have built them have told me it doesn't require a lot of skill to build, or you could get someone to build one for you.  All-in cost of a third-party built one might run about $1,000.

I'm going to feed this directly from my computer and on to my amps (I'm including the $30 Volumite controller in mine) thinking that keeps the costs of cables etc down and I can always build from there. I should be getting mine in about 6 weeks - can't wait.

Cheers
Will

[WGH]

I'm keeping my eye on the new 24/192 M2Tech hiFace USB to S/PDIF converter, not because I need one but because I find it so darn interesting.

The converter was first mentioned in the HiRez circle
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=72468.0

Which lead to a couple of threads on the Head-Fi Forum
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/usb-24-192khz-m2tech-hiface-446375/
and an ongoing review here
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/usb-spdif-converters-shoot-out-emu-0404-usb-vs-musiland-monitor-01-usd-vs-teralink-x-vs-m2tech-hiface-449885/

There is a mention somewhere in the Head-Fi threads that someone has hacked the interface to get a I2S output to feed a Twisted Pear OPUS DAC (Wolfson 8742). Heady times indeed.

Wayne

Edit: found the I2S thread with pics at diyAudio
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/153191-m2tech-hiface-usb-spdif-24-192khz-asynch-3.html

[bunnyma357]

I have a stock SB3 with upgraded power supply, going to a Zero DAC with discrete OpAmp upgrade which had given me better sound than going out of the computer. Being very budget conscious, when I upgraded I went with a Mac based HiRez set-up that gives me value, flexibility and better sound than the SB3/DAC combo.

Here's what I went with:

Firewire to a Focusrite Saffire Pro 26 I/O DAC/ADC, using iTunes/Pure Vinyl for playback of redbook upsampled to 24bit/192kHz. This will also allow me to use the Focusrite as a phono preamp when I upgrade to a Moving Coil cartridge, using Pure Vinyl as the RIAA equalizer and to digitize my vinyl.

Pure Vinyl seems to me to provide many of the same features as Amarra at about 20% of the cost - I haven't seen anyone compare the two, so I don't know how well it compares, but since Amarra is priced out of my range I haven't been inclined to test myself.

The only pain was that I had to convert my SB Flac files to ALAC, but that really wasn't a big deal - just like a day process using MAX to batch convert the whole library.

Pricing was a major issue for me, but I am happy with what I'm hearing vs. what it cost.

Saffire Pro 26 I/0 -  $289 on closeout
Pure Vinyl Software - $229

The pure vinyl software has a free demo download, and there is an update promised on 10/30 which will add a few features to the iTunes playback portion, the most important to me is gapless playback of multiple tracks from RAM.

http://www.channld.com/pure-vinyl.html


Jim C

[Quiet Earth]

David,
I've learned that with some of the Audio Note DACs, less is usually more.

I am running an unmodded squeezebox (have modded power supply) to an Audio Note dac that only receives digital connection. 

Me too. I have my Duet receiver (squeezebox) running its spdif output to the coax input of my Audio Note DAC. Different times along the way I've had either a non upsampling DIP or a Roland spidif mixer between the squeezebox and the DAC. There are pros and cons to these spdif buffers but what I've discovered is mostly this : The more pipes you put in the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the sink.

I would be interested in trying to improve the actual spdif output connection of the squeezebox via transformer output, but I just haven't gotten around to trying it.

[jrebman]

David,

If your heart is set on keeping the AN dac, you will be much better off using the ART Legato async USB-spdif converter.  I had a prototype of this that I used with my Havana and the differrence over the havana's usb input was amazing.

Couple facts about the wavelength dacs:

SRB said something about the Crimson being the only one that uses a true triode.  Actually, the Crimson is the only one that has options for a couple of directly heated single triodes.  The Brick uses a dual 12au7 triode, and the Cosecant uses a dual 6gm8 triode.  The Proton is powered by a combination of USB power and the built-in lithium ion battery pack.  You get about 20 hours of play time on a full charge, which in practice means that you don't really have to worry about it.  The unit charges whenever there is no music playing and the usb port is active, and if you have a laptop that you don't want to keep on all the time, you can also use any iPod or cell phone usb charger.  I have one and it is wonderful and since my Asus EEE box is on all the time, I just don't worry about the charging.

I also have a Cosecant on the way, so fairly shortly I'll be able to tell you the differences between it and the Proton.  I'll also have both the NOS (Transcendental) dac board, and the high-res Wolfson 24/96 board with it.

I was extremely happy with my Havana using the Legato and KCI Pegasus digital cable, but once I got the Proton, I heard the true potential of direct async usb which uses no intermediate spdif connection, and while the Havana was different (it's NOS and tube output) than the Proton (24/96 and SS output) I am sure the tube output Cosecant is going to be something else.

There is also the Brick 2496 coming out in November, which is the Brick with 24/96 capability, better output level and the same price as the original, and the optional "Mortar" power supply will take that one up a couple of notches -- so $2k for that whole setup.

Gordon Rankin at Wavelength is also going to be coming out with his own Async usb to spdif converter, but I don't know any details or price.

All the other usb dacs, except the Ayre and one from DCS use adaptive mode usb data transfer, which no matter how good the converter or dac, the computer still generates the master clock.  I've heard both, lived with both, and IMO, there is simply no substitute for the async approach.  BTW, this same "Streamlength" code is in the wavelength dacs, the legato usb to spdif converter, the Ayre dac, and the DCS machine.  Nobody else I know has it as it is Gordon's intellectual property.

HTH,

Jim

[srb]

SRB said something about the Crimson being the only one that uses a true triode.

Jim,
 
Actually I said the Crimson uses a true triode tube output (I didn't say it was the only one), but I mentioned nothing about tube outputs on the Brick or Cosecant, so in effect, I guess I implied that.  I edited my post to reflect the correct information, thank you.
 
The Wavelength site lists the Proton as "Priced from $900", which would seem to imply that there might be options, but I didn't see any information that would explain the pricing comment.  Are there options that you are aware of?
 
Since you preferred the Proton to the MHDT Havana and Legato interface, I look forward to your comparison between the Proton and the Coescant.  And since you will have both DAC boards, that makes it all the more interesting.
 
Steve

[EDS_]

Great thread guys.  FWiiW, I have a Legato in my system and am loving the results so far.  I'll attempt to write and post some useful thoughts this week.