VSA Verbatim speaker cables...

es347 · « **on:** 17 Oct 2009, 11:35 pm »

Ever heard of them? They were built by a business associate of Albert named Paul Garner. Well long story short, I found a bi-wire pair for sale on Audiogon a couple of weeks ago. Turns out the seller was Simon Phipps, the VSA distributor in the UK. I was encouraged by my audio consultant, JackD201, to snap them up. I did and can truly say that they are ridiculously good.

varsharun · « **Reply #1 on:** 18 Oct 2009, 12:03 am »

Wow, congrats Gavin on a rare find! Do they even beat the VSA signatures or just the VSA regular bi-wire?

-Arun

es347 · « **Reply #2 on:** 18 Oct 2009, 03:39 am »

It's seems to be a consensus that the Signatures outperform the Verbatims. Simon Phipps, VSA distributor in the UK, has critically compared the two and in messages to me states that the VSA Sigs are unequivocally better, especially in the bass region. The Sigs must be something really special.

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #3 on:** 18 Oct 2009, 05:55 am »

I remember Paul Garner. Once you got him on the phone he never stopped talking. Very informed audioholic. Anyhow I bought my VSA GEN III HSE speakers from him about five years ago. Since then I've tried various speaker cables. I really can't tell any difference between expensive cables and regular 12gauge wire. Much better results with good electronics. Preamp. Amp.

Cheers
Charlie

McTwins · « **Reply #4 on:** 18 Oct 2009, 06:31 am »

Hi
Is there any specs about these cables?

Honestly, I had Audioquest bedrock before my Cardas cable, the only different between these cables was that Cardas has better punch, but sonically, it's difficult to hear any changes. Other than that, I haven't tried any other brands of cables, probably will not do it for a long time anyway. Cardas has great specs both interconnect and speaker cable. Just of topic, did measurement between these cables just to see if there was any differen't in the aspect of the measured parameters, sorry, coulden't find any changes. Mayb it's not the right approch to do so.

But this is only my opinion, Gavin. If you hear or don't hear any differn't I am as happy as before.

Enjoy your new cable. You have allready good electronics , so don't worry about it.
Thanks

JackD201 · « **Reply #5 on:** 18 Oct 2009, 09:31 am »

Hi Arun,

When using the lower model LSA Standard Amp vs it's fully tricked out sibling the LSA Statement Amp I find that by comparison the Standard has a bit of gristle. In this instance I much prefer the VSA Bi-wires as they are more forgiving on the top end. With the Statement which is very clean, I'll take the Verbatims over the regular bi-wires.

With the really good stuff we have lying around here the Verbatims are just more extended and more lacking of any obvious character. The VSAs fall into the sonic camp of the Golden References and AP Oval 8s while the Verbatims are closer to the Netral References and the Golden Ovals. That's just a small part of things though.

My impression of the Verbatims is that the speakers seem to be in a firm handshake with the OPTs of the amplifiers. Maybe because they are made from these OFC ribbons that were designed for military transformer windings. They have the least losses of most cables I've heard at length but I think are bettered by two. Kubala-Sosna's Elations and MIT's baddest of the bad oracles. These two are just as transparent but in my opinion are even quieter and have better blacks.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but well, the Verbatims do look like angry King Cobras and are likely to scare off women and children

They were also extremely difficult to make, the VSA jumper models in particular that both Gavin and I own. Too bad they aren't made anymore but I hope Albert might consider bringing them back. At least for those of us that aren't afraid to handle venomous snakes

I still don't have the signatures on hand but expect to have some in a couple of months. I can compare then. These are however the references with which the new VSA cables were designed to emulate.

es347 · « **Reply #6 on:** 18 Oct 2009, 03:20 pm »

Quote from: Charles Calkins on 18 Oct 2009, 05:55 am

I remember Paul Garner. Once you got him on the phone he never stopped talking. Very informed audioholic. Anyhow I bought my VSA GEN III HSE speakers from him about five years ago. Since then I've tried various speaker cables. I really can't tell any difference between expensive cables and regular 12gauge wire. Much better results with good electronics. Preamp. Amp.

Cheers
Charlie

Hi Charlie,

I was in your camp until I went completely anal and did a very limited comparison here in my listening room. I was surprised and somewhat disappointed that I heard distinct differences in the cables on hand. I was hoping that my VSA biwires would be equaled by a less expensive cable and I would pocket the savings. The acid test was when my wife was sitting to the side here in the listening room when I was doing a comparison between the MITs and the VSAs. When I switched from the MITs to the VSAs she turned from her Martha Stewart Living and asked "what did you just do?" She went on to say "those sound a lot better". Now I realize that's a very subjective comment...better to her may not be the next guy's better...but it should be noted that she heard a difference...and she doesn't possess what you would call trained ears. I'm not pushing back here, please don't misunderstand. There are two camps on this subject and we simply aren't in the same one. We ARE in the same speaker camp though!

Gavin

es347 · « **Reply #7 on:** 18 Oct 2009, 03:29 pm »

Great pix Jack,

Your Vs have bananas! In discussions with Albert, I got the impression that Paul terminated all his cables with spade lugs. I am envious because I hate spade lugs. I installed Audioquest gold lug-to-banana adapters and it works quite well actually. Here are a couple of pix.

Charles Calkins · « **Reply #8 on:** 18 Oct 2009, 04:06 pm »

Gavin:
Your probably right. My late wife had excellent hearing. We always went shopping together for audio speakers and electronics. But darn!!! Now I have to make my own decisions. It's the pitts!!! Plus I wouldn't have a clue as to where to start with speaker cables. There are so many different brands out there that it is very confusing.

Cheers
Charlie

ceedee · « **Reply #9 on:** 18 Oct 2009, 04:48 pm »

Hi Gavin,

The pictures look very good.

Q.

We advice to connect the spadelugs direct and tight to the WBT on the VSA's.
In this way you skip an other "dip" in the signalpath.

Did you try this?

Regards,

Cor

srb · « **Reply #10 on:** 18 Oct 2009, 04:50 pm »

Quote from: ceedee on 18 Oct 2009, 04:48 pm

We advice to connect the spadelugs direct and tight to the WBT on the VSA's.
In this way you skip an other "dip" in the signalpath.

I think if I had some of the finest power amps and speaker cables available, I would probably want to wire direct, too.

Steve

es347 · « **Reply #11 on:** 18 Oct 2009, 04:52 pm »

Sorry to hear about your wife. Yes it's beyond confusing but if you are up to it, and believe me it can be frustrating, take advantage of the in-home auditions available out there. You may be surprised. I firmly believe that most of the cable designs are via serendipity, certainly not rigorous science. Most of the claims are preposterous bologna but as nuts as it may seem, the VSA cable from Albert seems to have remarkable synergy with his speakers.

es347 · « **Reply #12 on:** 18 Oct 2009, 04:59 pm »

Quote from: ceedee on 18 Oct 2009, 04:48 pm

Hi Gavin,

The pictures look very good.

Q.

We advice to connect the spadelugs direct and tight to the WBT on the VSA's.
In this way you skip an other "dip" in the signalpath.

Did you try this?

Regards,

Cor

No I did not!

Not sure I will as the adapters were a bugger to install and they sound great. But now that the suggestion has been planted (thanks Cor

), I'm sure at some point I will relent. Even with those WBT jacks and especially the 5 ways on my 501s, spade lugs don't tighten down well and the weight of the cable tends to pull them away from the speaker posts. All that aside, you raise a good point Cor. I will report back.

Gavin

JackD201 · « **Reply #13 on:** 18 Oct 2009, 05:23 pm »

Hi Gavin,

The trick is to use the cable's own weight to your advantage aa Attach the spades from the top of the binding posts and not from below. It'll look kinda funny at first but it does add to the Cobra look

Here's an example with extremely heavy Kubala Sosna Emotions. Nope, not my 9s, mine are Bronze these are Steinway Black. I fuzzed out Keith in the background

Those very expensive rhodium WBTs are there for a reason. I'm sure you'll be able to get a nice snug fit. Tighten them gently with a small towel or rag. That should be good enough to not worry about shorting anything out. I mean we were confident enough to turn these over to their owner without worry.

Yup I asked specifically for bananas on the speaker end because I'm lazy but also asked specifically for spades on the amp end because not all amps are banana ready like my Levinsons which have some winged contraptions.

I wonder if Albert is reading this. Bring 'em back Albert!

es347 · « **Reply #14 on:** 18 Oct 2009, 07:21 pm »

I'll have to think about it. I hate those darn spade lugs

Wow that's some setup Jack. I've seen that picture before. Is Keith wanted by the law hence the fuzzing out?

..and the unavoidable addendum: or is he just on the Lamm?

srb · « **Reply #15 on:** 18 Oct 2009, 07:31 pm »

Quote from: es347 on 18 Oct 2009, 07:21 pm

Wow that's some setup Jack.

Like a formation of soldiers ready to engage upon command.

Steve

Delacroix · « **Reply #16 on:** 18 Oct 2009, 08:51 pm »

Congrats on the Verbatim scoop Gavin, you might actually be off the merry-go-round now, at least on speaker cable. I learned about these cables on another forum a couple of years back, and if I recall, it was Jack who mentioned them to me there. I never did find a pair that would fit my set up and ended up going a different path. Like others here, I really did not want to hear differences in cable and even lived happily for years with a set of home-made 12awg that worked fine until I found some MIT's at a deal that marginally improved on them. Of course, as my gear got better, and I ended up with VR5s, cable differences became a little more hearable to me and my significant other (and I trust her ears for calibration, if for nothing else than to put my 'significant' differences in perspective). See a pattern here? Explaining this is not obvious and at the risk of inflaming the easily-upset, electrical engineers don't have the best explanations, by why should they? Since when did engineering claim any special knowledge of human perception? That said, I've never heard a cable change that made a poor system sound good but I do hear cables that make a good system sound different. Yes there is a lot of BS out there in cable-land but tell me a business where that isn't at least partially the case? At the end of the day, if you want to find cable improvements, trust your ears and then figure out if the differences are positive and warrant the cost for you. As Gavin notes, cable auditions at home are invaluable.

keith · « **Reply #17 on:** 19 Oct 2009, 03:23 am »

Quote from: es347 on 18 Oct 2009, 07:21 pm

I'll have to think about it. I hate those darn spade lugs Wow that's some setup Jack. I've seen that picture before. Is Keith wanted by the law hence the fuzzing out?

..and the unavoidable addendum: or is he just on the Lamm?

Not wanted Gavin ... left wanting is more like it.

Congratulations on the the Verbatims. I'm one of the few who use an all "Verby" set up and I love em.

McTwins · « **Reply #18 on:** 19 Oct 2009, 06:47 am »

Gavin.......
I see that you are running in the 8 ohm tap, Why my I ask. Try it on the 4 ohm tap instead. I presume that you have 6 ohm average with the Annies.
Those VR9

Thanks

JackD201 · « **Reply #19 on:** 19 Oct 2009, 07:39 am »

Quote from: Delacroix on 18 Oct 2009, 08:51 pm

That said, I've never heard a cable change that made a poor system sound good but I do hear cables that make a good system sound different. Yes there is a lot of BS out there in cable-land but tell me a business where that isn't at least partially the case? At the end of the day, if you want to find cable improvements, trust your ears and then figure out if the differences are positive and warrant the cost for you. As Gavin notes, cable auditions at home are invaluable.

I wholeheartedly agree especially the bold part. My personal belief is that the cable's job is to let as much of the signal pass through as possible not just selected frequencies and harmonics. Good or Bad. There are many other ways to adjust tonal balance even without an EQ. I'd start with optimizing placement and set up first then room treatments and only then equipment synergies via side and upgrades. Cables have never been on my list of fixes. When I come across really good cables however then it is pure icing on the cake.