Seven power amplifiers - which one?

HighFye · « **on:** 14 Oct 2009, 05:52 pm »

Hello everyone! New to this forum and have a bit of a problem - trying to decide which of seven power amps at a shop to keep. I have a credit going and am trying to choose. I don't want to take each one home and try them, so maybe someone can guide me in the right direction. Basically looking for something musical - open,dynamic, good bottom end with control. Definitely not bright,hard or edgy. I hope that description helps! I listen to jazz,instrumental (particularly guitar),acoustic,some classical, easy listening and some contemporary. I do like good controlled bass. Speakers are Mission 781s and pre amp is a basic tube with no tone controls. Any suggestions?
Here is the list:

Phase Linear 300 Series Two
Mitsubishi DA A10DC
Mitsubishi A30
Acurus A250
BGW 250D
Adcom GF535
Philips PA 1200B

Bill Thomas · « **Reply #1 on:** 14 Oct 2009, 06:01 pm »

My absolute FIRST choice would be the BGW! It is controlled, accurate, "beefy" (without being "tubby") and has no trace of upper end "sizzle" that becomes so objectionable and tiring to the ears after a short period of time.

I'm SURE others have different "favorites" on your list, but you asked for an opinion. Now you have one.

Bill

srb · « **Reply #2 on:** 14 Oct 2009, 06:36 pm »

I'm more curious about this shop, as all 7 seem to be in the 25-30 year old range. Do they have vintage speakers, too?

Quote from: Bill Thomas on 14 Oct 2009, 06:01 pm

My absolute FIRST choice would be the BGW!

Bill, I always fear that older amps will need capacitors replaced. As a refurbisher, do all older amplifiers have basically the same type of capacitors, or do some models have a more robust type that can endure the years?

Steve

konut · « **Reply #3 on:** 14 Oct 2009, 07:47 pm »

On that list there are 2 standouts. No need to try all 7, just take the BGW and Acurus home and A/B them. That would be the only way to make a decision with YOUR ears and YOUR speakers. The others just don't measure up. The general rule is that if a capacitor is old enough to vote, replace it.

Having said that, I have used equipment with caps that old and not had problems.

HighFye · « **Reply #4 on:** 15 Oct 2009, 12:36 am »

Thank you guys for your thoughts on the selection - I just brought the BGW back after returning the Philips. The result, in a nutshell, WOW! The BGW makes the Philips sound just ok. With the BGW the music is so much more lively and open. And yes the bass is accurate and controlled wonderfully. The unit has only been on for less than an hour along with the preamp so it will probably mellow somewhat as the top end is nice and detailed (and open) but a touch bright. It does not bother me though because somewhat bright is not the same as glaring or harsh, which is definitely not it's trait even "cold". I will be enjoying some time with it, that is for sure.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #5 on:** 15 Oct 2009, 03:00 am »

I woulda' taken the Mitsubishi DA-A10 myself...dual mono is a great way to go with power amps and Mitsui made some commendable ones (and they are really cheap to buy today)

Enjoy tho....John

Bill Thomas · « **Reply #6 on:** 15 Oct 2009, 05:19 am »

Hi, Steve!

Capacitors *can* be a concern in "aging" units, but capacitor technology had improved greatly by the time BGW made this unit. This doesn't mean a capacitor from the 80's won't necessarily fail, but there is a higher likelihood that the unit will operate well. As with ANY unit that has electrolytic capacitors in it, USING it regularly is more beneficial to the long-term survival of ANY of the capacitors.

The absolute WORST thing anyone can do is to let a unit sit for 30 years and then simply fire it up and watch for smoke or wait for a capacitor to blow its top! Chances are, you WILL be rewarded with explosions and truly noxious fumes!

There ARE exceptions to the "newer capacitors are better" philosophy. As most of us know, there was a truly NASTY problem with a HUGE run of electrolytic capacitors a couple of years ago. It's a rather (depressingly) fascinating story of corporate espionage and greed centering on an Asian manufacturer who obtained a "secret" capacitor formulation by theft and went on to produce MILLIONS of electrolytics - ALL defective because the formula that was stolen was, in fact, a bogus formula! The greatest percentage of these bad caps went into computer Power Supplies and Motherboards, but THOUSANDS of them also wound up in flat-panel displays. Sadly, they couldn't be identified by a manufacturer's brand (because they were falsely branded with a "good" manufacturer's name), but they can EASILY be spotted when they fail. Look for capacitors with bulging tops. If you see ANY electrolytics with bulging cases of ANY kind, REPLACE THEM! Don't wait for them to fail (which they surely WILL do soon).

These bad caps are STILL showing up in brand new equipment today! It's pretty rare, but every once in awhile you'll run into a piece of gear that has failing capacitors after about a year of use! The monitor I am using to write this had five of them in the Power Supply for the backlight. It failed 13 months after purchase! Every one of the questionable capacitors was bulging!

BGW used VERY high quality parts in their amplifiers. While I am sure they occasionally had failures, I have NEVER seen a BGW amplifier fail under normal use! These amplifiers were commonly used in recording studios during the 80's because they were nearly bulletproof and sounded GORGEOUS! I spent many long nights enjoying them while "doing a mixdown" back in the 80's. If I had my "druthers" today, I would hunt down a BGW for my own personal use. I simply don't know of another solid-state amplifier that I feel this strongly about.

Most of the time, when folks ask a question about "which is better?", I find myself facing a multitude of choices where any ONE of the choices *might* be a good pick depending upon the circumstances and equipment involved, but in THIS case, there is a clear winner (in MY opinion) that I feel completely comfortable about recommending without reservation. I'm TRULY glad HighFye's experience seems to bear out my recommendation. While he mentioned that the amp sounds "a touch bright", my experience is that they sound "articulate" and "detailed" with strong "accuracy" at the top end. Of course, speakers are the HUGE variable in this combination, but I have found that the BGW's can drive nearly ANYTHING with a minimum of "fuss." With the right music, they can positively make you sweat due to your total involvement with the music! I consider them one of the better kept "secrets" of ANY solid-state amplifiers that have EVER been produced.

Ok, I'll go take my meds now!

Sincerely,

Bill Thomas

HighFye · « **Reply #7 on:** 15 Oct 2009, 08:35 pm »

Bill, thank you for your insight and informative post. I am tempted to try the BGW in my main system just to see whether I might actually prefer it over the Odyssey Stratos that is currently used. Could be a toss up or I might be surprised. I almost hate to do it given that the Stratos was three times what I paid for the 250D. I will let you know if I give do the comparison.

Nels Ferre · « **Reply #8 on:** 15 Oct 2009, 08:59 pm »

Of the choices you had, I agree with Bill- the BGW is the winner IMHO by a big margin.

doug s. · « **Reply #9 on:** 16 Oct 2009, 01:48 am »

i have never tried a bgw, but the mitsu da-a10 is an incredible amp...

doug s.

HighFye · « **Reply #10 on:** 16 Oct 2009, 05:20 pm »

The Mitsubishi was also in the running but for various reasons decided on the BGW, perhaps I should have taken it home and at least given it an audition but it involved a lot of driving around so I wimped out!

JakeJ · « **Reply #11 on:** 16 Oct 2009, 08:43 pm »

I'm sorry, but I would have tried them all before making my final decision. I would have asked to take any two home then pick the winner, take one back and bring the next one on the list home, again pick the winner, ad nauseam until the winner stood alone.

Only way to do it.

Just my .02

JakeJ

srb · « **Reply #12 on:** 16 Oct 2009, 08:48 pm »

Quote from: JakeJ on 16 Oct 2009, 08:43 pm

I'm sorry, but I would have tried them all before making my final decision. I would have asked to take any two home then pick the winner, take one back and bring the next one on the list home, again pick the winner, ad nauseam until the winner stood alone.

Maybe, but HighFye probably wanted to be welcomed back into the shop again sometime in the future.

Steve

JakeJ · « **Reply #13 on:** 16 Oct 2009, 09:26 pm »

Yeah, you're right. Smart thing to do is let the shop owner know your listening tastes and he can narrow it down to two or three to try.

Personally, the top three for me to try would have been the Mitsubishi DA A10DC, the Acurus A250, and the BGW.

doug s. · « **Reply #14 on:** 16 Oct 2009, 09:53 pm »

Quote from: JakeJ on 16 Oct 2009, 09:26 pm

Yeah, you're right. Smart thing to do is let the shop owner know your listening tastes and he can narrow it down to two or three to try.

Personally, the top three for me to try would have been the Mitsubishi DA A10DC, the Acurus A250, and the BGW.

i'd have wanted to compare the adcom gfa535 as well; i had an original gfa555 which was no slouch, and sam tellig said the 535 was adcom's best sounding effort at the time, if all you needed was 60wpc. a shootout between these woulda been interesting...

doug s.

HighFye · « **Reply #15 on:** 17 Oct 2009, 02:43 am »

It's not all bad,my brother decided to buy the Adcom 535 along with the matching pre amp so he is enjoying the improved sound over what he replaced them with.

mjosef · « **Reply #16 on:** 17 Oct 2009, 03:12 am »

Quote

sam tellig said the 535 was adcom's best sounding effort at the time,

I bought the 535 back in '86(?) based on his review. A decade later I picked up the 555(used), and sure enough Sam Tellig was right...the 535 was more detailed and sweeter sounding than the 555. I still have both amps. The 555 is pulling HT sub/center duties. The 535 is just sitting around, but I think its power caps needs replacing, heard some 'squelching' sounds last time I hooked it up.
Initially I had the 500(?) tuner-preamp bought together with the 535, and the sound was on the 'sharp' side at higher volume. Not a great match. Then I got a PS audio IV pre with matched much better.
Speakers at that time was The Wharfedale Diamonds.

Which pre did you he get?

Quote

my brother decided to buy the Adcom 535 along with the matching pre amp

HighFye · « **Reply #17 on:** 17 Oct 2009, 06:19 pm »

Since some of you have had experience with equipment such as this, maybe mjosef or others could give some insight. The pre amp is a matching Adcom GTP 400, the combination seems more articulate and is more open with a much more substantial bottom end. His previous equipment was an AR - X07 Receiver/integrated amp. Has a dual power supply but they sure crammed everything in the chassis.I don't think AR made much along those lines - I would assume it was mid '80s or so.All I can say is, my brother was glad he tried something else. I have some Celestion Ditton 110s lying around as back up, wonder if we should try them out. He has some Jamo floor standing speakers at the moment - Silhouettes. Seem rather basic and I am sure he could do better in an older model like the Dittons without breaking the bank. I believe someone he knows owes some money and may sell him something - the guy loves Naim. Has so much equipment he purchased over the years and would not sell that he did not even realize what he had until he started digging around his house. We will have to check it out for sure.

Mitsuman · « **Reply #18 on:** 14 Oct 2010, 06:14 pm »

Quote from: HighFye on 16 Oct 2009, 05:20 pm

The Mitsubishi was also in the running but for various reasons decided on the BGW, perhaps I should have taken it home and at least given it an audition but it involved a lot of driving around so I wimped out!

I hope you're happy with your BGW, but if you didn't listen to the Mitsu, you missed out.

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #19 on:** 14 Oct 2010, 06:27 pm »

Quote from: HighFye on 14 Oct 2009, 05:52 pm

Hello everyone! New to this forum and have a bit of a problem - trying to decide which of seven power amps at a shop to keep. I have a credit going and am trying to choose. I don't want to take each one home and try them, so maybe someone can guide me in the right direction. Basically looking for something musical - open,dynamic, good bottom end with control. Definitely not bright,hard or edgy. I hope that description helps! I listen to jazz,instrumental (particularly guitar),acoustic,some classical, easy listening and some contemporary. I do like good controlled bass. Speakers are Mission 781s and pre amp is a basic tube with no tone controls. Any suggestions?
Here is the list:

Phase Linear 300 Series Two
Mitsubishi DA A10DC
Mitsubishi A30
Acurus A250
BGW 250D
Adcom GF535
Philips PA 1200B

Not the ADCOM, it is not a transparent or musical amp, the only ADCOM good sound are the Nelson Pass desingned, seems was the 5802.
The Phuzz Linear looks no better.
Regards, Gustavo

>Never go to a psychiatrist, adopt a cat or dog from the street. On the streets they live only two years average.