Finding the right amplifier

sfox7076 · « **on:** 11 Oct 2009, 01:23 pm »

So I am in the process of doing an upgrade all around in my 5.1 system (and this has to be an HT/Music system as I live in a one-bedroom in Manhattan). I started with Paradigm Studio 60s v2 in the front, Studio 20s v2 in the rear, a studio center, a HSU VTF-2, an Outlaw 990, an Outlaw 770 (7 x 200W amp made by ATI), Arcam CD Player, Sony DVP-777ES, and a Oppo971H DVD player.

I have kept the ARCAM CD player. I replaced the Paradigms and the HSU with Salk SongTower RTs in the front, a SongCenter, Songsurrounds, a Salk build of the Rythmik down firing 15" sub. The Outlaw 990 preamp has been replaced with an Anthem DV2V (the new one). The Oppo DVD was replaced with the Oppo Blu-Ray player. The 400 Disc CD changer was replaced by an Airport Extreme, Airtunes and all my CDs in Apple Lossless.

So yes, that leaves the amps. I have on and off looked into amps for a bit. The Outlaw amp is fine sounding, but I don't really want fine. I want something more than fine as you might expect. I have to have this doing home theater and 2 channel duty. I have considered wyred4sound, but the concept of ICE Amps doesn't seem to sit right for me. I like the concept of the amps not using much power, but I have heard that there are some sound issues, especially when you first turn them on. I know Salk and AVA are supposed to be a great combo. I have some size constraints because I live in Manhattan. What do you guys think would work best in my situation?

Shawn

Art_Chicago · « **Reply #1 on:** 11 Oct 2009, 04:37 pm »

Insight 240/3 (front+ center) and insight 240 to cover 5 channels. Stereo with ST's will be the best for the money.

Wayner · « **Reply #2 on:** 11 Oct 2009, 08:21 pm »

+1 for Art's Insightful(+) recommendation! That would be 120 watts RMS times 5 channels with exact matching timbre'.

Should be a great HT/music system.

Wayner

bummrush · « **Reply #3 on:** 11 Oct 2009, 10:57 pm »

If you go ice ,you better have a long trial period ,listening for 2,3,even 4week s not long enough.I had mine for many many months,and after awhile i was like there just isnt something right here,and as far as im concerned there wasnt,,so i sold em, i tried two different brands,it didnt matter.
Also its not a thing of class A,class AB,tubes ,solid sate,,ice just didnt do it.
I had a Frank amp yrs ago and was more then satisfied.
Also this power thing where people keep harping about the green of these amps is misleading also,alot of times people compare to when you leave youre reg.amps powered up all the time,and then compare them to other classes of amps.
I dont see how you can go wrong with Frank,

avahifi · « **Reply #4 on:** 12 Oct 2009, 02:18 pm »

Digital amps - - - those I have heard seem to play all of the notes but none of the music. Its kind of like prime standing beef rib re-heated in a microwave.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

sfox7076 · « **Reply #5 on:** 12 Oct 2009, 06:02 pm »

If I needed a line to sell the purchase to my wife, the standing rib comment would do it for her. She hates microwaves because of how they do that...

jazzcourier · « **Reply #6 on:** 12 Oct 2009, 06:47 pm »

I am not sure what playing all the notes but none of the music means ? Does this mean that any given recording would lack the character,depth,warmth and reality of the true recorded sound ? Maybe this means that the digital amps heard have a lean,unappealing sound that betrays the music presented? If this is so then you are certainly NOT referring to the WYRED 4 SOUND amps. I must say for the last 4 months i have been enthralled with the combination of the Wyred STP special edition preamp combined with the St 500 power amp's performance.
These two amps replaced two McIntosh solid state amps and at about half the price the performance is almost twice that of the McIntosh.The musicality of the Wyred amps is superb.I have paired these amps with a pair of restored Acoustic Research 4 way AR-90'S and have used two very good cd players-The Ear Acute and the Modwright Sony 9100es platinum mods with upgraded power supply and Bendix tubes.Using Supra sword speaker cables,Supra Sword xlr's, and Jungson Golden Dragon ic's.The power cords are Virtual dynamics Acoustic Zen Tsunami plus anchored in a Hydra 8 power conditioner.The collective sound is awesome.This is my second system in my den and i feel i struck gold by buying the Wyred 4 Sound amps,They bring all these elements together in a flowing harmony that drives the speakers like they were intended to be driven,filling the room with glorious sound.
Other positive design principals of these amps are the small size and lack of heat.After reading some favorable reviews,having great success with the Spectron Musician class D amp on my main system,and several fascinating conversations with Rick Cullen i decided to try these amps .Knowing i could return them with a re-stocking fee made it an easy purchase and the price was right for my budget for redoing this den system.I have to say right out of the box the amps sounded great and just keep getting better.
My main system is primarily tube based and i have no issues going between the two portals of realistic,satisfying sound. Perhaps it IS the eternal quest to properly match components for the best sound in the right room that IS the holy grail of balance in audio,that is why i read this thread yesterday and followed it today and felt i had to add some balance to the discussion of Class D "ICE" amps.The Wyred 4 Sound amps deserve their day in court.

gjs_cds · « **Reply #7 on:** 12 Oct 2009, 06:50 pm »

If budget's an issue... it's been my experience that I *actively* prefer a 2.1 system done properly, as opposed to an HT (5.1 / 7.1) system done w/ mediocrity. Frank even wrote about this many years ago in an article titled something like "5 shiny new pennies" or something...

To my ears, HT receivers usually sound too "crisp", "cold" and generally "fake". Yamaha, especially. Denon may be a bit better, and H/K... who knows where there quality is now...

I think the AVA 3 channel amp is a great buy... It gets you the front channels squared away w/ quality. You can use any amp for the rear, and (as budget allows) upgrade accordingly.

avahifi · « **Reply #8 on:** 12 Oct 2009, 07:21 pm »

All I know about the amp brand you mentioned was that the recent RMAF show, their setup would not play my favorite torture CD, Sheffield recording #CD-29, Clair Marlo, Let It Go, first track.

The top end of the loud female vocals got very sandy indeed, verging on grainy, with a distinct lack of body to the voices too. The sound screamed "digital" to me.

I use this CD on many systems because it brings out the worst in them. Some did very well, most not so well. The excuses ranged from "our equipment is not broken in yet" to "our speaker wires were just installed and they are not broken in yet", to "everyone knows that is a terrible recording". Ya sure.

I don't want to pick on any one brand of equipment, we use this track in house here over and over again, and have heard most of the nasty things it can do to equipment on various failed prototype ideas of our own. However, when things are right, the track plays back astonishingly musically.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

simon wagstaff · « **Reply #9 on:** 12 Oct 2009, 09:04 pm »

How much stereo vs. home theater do you listen to? do you use the sub with the fronts for music? C'mon, this fellow is crying out for a U70/ultravalve and the three channel amp for center and rears. I have a receiver and use it's channels for the center and rear but the U70 for the fronts. Power will not be a problem there in your Manhattan apartment.

U70 rawks!!!!

Well, just my opinion...

gjs_cds · « **Reply #10 on:** 13 Oct 2009, 12:11 am »

Quote from: simon wagstaff on 12 Oct 2009, 09:04 pm

How much stereo vs. home theater do you listen to? do you use the sub with the fronts for music? C'mon, this fellow is crying out for a U70/ultravalve and the three channel amp for center and rears. I have a receiver and use it's channels for the center and rear but the U70 for the fronts. Power will not be a problem there in your Manhattan apartment.

U70 rawks!!!!

Well, just my opinion...

I actually don't see the sense in that, as you would want some kind of tonal constancy between the front channels, especially. If you're serious about HT, then mix-and-matching your amps & drivers is goofy. If you don't care about HT, then fine--go ahead and do it. Just an odd-price-point to spend for HT on such a design.

sfox7076 · « **Reply #11 on:** 13 Oct 2009, 02:34 am »

What about the Ultra 550 for the fronts and an Insight for the center/rears. I would say the system is mostly pushing music, but has to be capable for HT because I have one room. I have TV/Music/HT all from the same group of components. Welcome to living in Manhattan....

Shawn

Art_Chicago · « **Reply #12 on:** 13 Oct 2009, 02:57 am »

i'd talk to Frank, it is your best bet. Ultra is great for live music, so it depends on your taste.

simon wagstaff · « **Reply #13 on:** 13 Oct 2009, 10:53 am »

Well, I guess I am not that serious about home theater and am finding myself listening to more and more two channel music. I do have matching speakers across the front (Infinity IM 4.1 and 3.5) but just don't see THAT much difference between amps for a home theater application. The center will be mainly for dialogue and the surrounds should be producing a diffuse sound field. So fine then, U70's all around and just don't use one of the channels or set up a 6.1 system.

[/quote]

I actually don't see the sense in that, as you would want some kind of tonal constancy between the front channels, especially. If you're serious about HT, then mix-and-matching your amps & drivers is goofy. If you don't care about HT, then fine--go ahead and do it. Just an odd-price-point to spend for HT on such a design.
[/quote]

Rocket · « **Reply #14 on:** 13 Oct 2009, 11:17 am »

Hi Frank,

When you were at RMAF did you get an opportunity to hear the Emerald Physics speakers? I think they were showing with Wyred 4 Sound. Just interested in your opinion of the speakers.

Regards

Rod

avahifi · « **Reply #15 on:** 13 Oct 2009, 01:49 pm »

See my response regarding digital sound above. In a strange room with all strange equipment, it is hard to separate out the sound of the electronics from that of the speakers, but I suspect the speakers were the best thing in that room.

Frank

sfox7076 · « **Reply #16 on:** 13 Oct 2009, 08:20 pm »

To highjack my thread back, what about the Ultra 550 for the two fronts and an insight for the center and rears. The Anthem should be able to deal with trim issues.

Shawn

Wayner · « **Reply #17 on:** 13 Oct 2009, 08:23 pm »

That would be nice. Did you say that there was going to be an LFE or two?

Wayner

sfox7076 · « **Reply #18 on:** 13 Oct 2009, 08:30 pm »

The LFE is a Rythmik 15" sub made by Jim Salk.

Wayner · « **Reply #19 on:** 13 Oct 2009, 08:36 pm »

OK, now I think the 550 is overkill, but a nice amplifier. Does Jim's sub have a plate amplifier? I'm not familiar with that model. If so, what's the RMS out?

Wayner