Are VPI tables considered involving and musical?

toobluvr · « **on:** 7 Oct 2009, 05:10 pm »

I know VPI is well respected for build, value and sonics. But over the years I have come across comments that they are just a tad dry and somewhat clinical and hi-fi'ish in character, and possibly not the best choice for a listener that prefers an enchanting, seductive and emotional listening experience.

Is this a fair assessment of the VPI sound? Is it's presentation a bit cool, matter of fact, and mechanical?

For example, are VPI background silences blueish and cool rather than a warmish jet black? It is the difference between a quiet warehouse and an empty church at midnight (or the warm and expectant hush of a concert hall right before a performance starts).

If one prizes tone, fluidity, bloom, harmonic texture and a sonic beauty that is organic and "whole" sounding, will VPI provide it?

I do like detail (natural), space, staging and other hi-fi attributes, but ultimately I wanna be seduced when I listen. I want an emotional listening experience, one in which I feel connected to the music and the performers. So I guess a slightly warm, embellished and romantic sound is preferred.

Obviously, I listen with my heart and soul rather than my brain. Involvement and musicality are what I seek.

I am open to all suggestions. New MSRP in the $1000 to $3000 range for table and arm.

Thanks in advance for all input, comments and recs!

~John

bluemike · « **Reply #1 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 05:26 pm »

In my opinion no ..i'm sure others will disagree
i've heard many vpi setups in my stereo group and they all seem to have that analytical mechanical sound
this is strictly subjective and somewhat system dependant !

Take a look at the Nottingham tables they may be a better match they are on the other extreme in terms of musical presentation
chocolate or vanilla pick your flavour

thunderbrick · « **Reply #2 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 05:30 pm »

Not trying to divert the thread, but how is an early SOTA reputed to sound? I am getting ready to drag mine out of storage and crank 'er up.

toobluvr · « **Reply #3 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 05:33 pm »

Well after you take her for a spin, report back on what YOU hear!

thunderbrick · « **Reply #4 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 05:37 pm »

Damn. That means I have to con somebody into helping me set it up. It has an ET-II arm and I've never been convinced I had it adjusted right.

I am at least 80 miles from someone who could do it, so it wouldn't be easy to have them drive down and help.

Plus, my system has been down for several years during divorce, remarriage, and the obligatory re-model under the new administration.

Sonny · « **Reply #5 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 05:39 pm »

John,

I've had both the Scout and VPI TNT 3.5 (Current) and have never thought my set up was dry etc...I feel that the background is dead quiet and well, it makes my feet tap...

T

toobluvr · « **Reply #6 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 05:43 pm »

Quote from: thunderbrick on 7 Oct 2009, 05:37 pm

Damn. That means I have to con somebody into helping me set it up. It has an ET-II arm and I've never been convinced I had it adjusted right.

I am at least 80 miles from someone who could do it, so it wouldn't be easy to have them drive down and help.

Plus, my system has been down for several years during divorce, remarriage, and the obligatory re-model under the new administration.

While VTA and VTF are important, I've learned from playing around with this stuff over the years, that proper cartridge alignment and geometry are THE KEY variables to good sound.

Get those null points locked in and strap yourself in for the ride of your life!

toobluvr · « **Reply #7 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 06:18 pm »

Quote from: bluemike on 7 Oct 2009, 05:26 pm

In my opinion no ..i'm sure others will disagree
i've heard many vpi setups in my stereo group and they all seem to have that analytical mechanical sound
this is strictly subjective and somewhat system dependant !

Take a look at the Nottingham tables they may be a better match they are on the other extreme in terms of musical presentation
chocolate or vanilla pick your flavour

Yep Bluemike....

My invesigations over the years have led me to believe that Nottingham would be a nice choice. They've always been on my short list!

mmmmmm....I like chocolate!

bluemike · « **Reply #8 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 06:20 pm »

Personally I prefer the Lenco idlers over them both

toobluvr · « **Reply #9 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 06:21 pm »

Quote from: bluemike on 7 Oct 2009, 06:20 pm

Personally I prefer the Lenco idlers over them both

Oh, now you're getting all esoteric and vintage on me!

That world frightens me!

bluemike · « **Reply #10 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 06:36 pm »

Quote from: toobluvr on 7 Oct 2009, 06:21 pm

Quote from: bluemike on 7 Oct 2009, 06:20 pm
Personally I prefer the Lenco idlers over them both

Oh, now you're getting all esoteric and vintage on me!

That world frightens me!

give it a try it may change your perception on vintage equipment

I have a lenco powering my Ridge Street Speakers and for the money I spent on the table i'm grinning from ear to ear aa

toobluvr · « **Reply #11 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 06:45 pm »

Quote from: bluemike on 7 Oct 2009, 06:36 pm

Quote from: toobluvr on 7 Oct 2009, 06:21 pm
Quote from: bluemike on 7 Oct 2009, 06:20 pm
Personally I prefer the Lenco idlers over them both

Oh, now you're getting all esoteric and vintage on me!

That world frightens me!
give it a try it may change your perception on vintage equipment

I have a lenco powering my Ridge Street Speakers and for the money I spent on the table i'm grinning from ear to ear aa

Oh, I don't doubt that stuff can sound excellent.

My buddy around the corner just got one of those massively refurbished Garrard 301, and he is over the moon happy. And he put many many thousands in his pocket on the TT change!

But for now, I'm a plug and play guy. Don't wanna bother with the breakdowns.......and the mods.....and the repairs.....and the refurbishments, etc.

Now of course, if it already comes with the work all done, I'm all ears!
aa

Wayner · « **Reply #12 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 06:57 pm »

I am starting to question the uni-pivot arm design the VPI employs. I have heard comments from several owners that the arm seems to like to roll in the azimuth as it tracks less then perfect records. After some internal debate on this issue, i wonder if the arm is constantly rolling back and forth, changing the contact area on the stylus on the left and right channel. While the unipivot arm solves one problem of inherent friction at the pivot points, it creates another by being unstable.

Wayner

bluemike · « **Reply #13 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 06:59 pm »

Be on the look out for a re plinthed slate Lenco with all the fixings or a Jean Nantais one I see them on Audiogon quite a bit

It would be plug and play which is how I like it as well

Cheers
Pat

toobluvr · « **Reply #14 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 07:05 pm »

Thanks Pat....Thanks Wayner!

lcrim · « **Reply #15 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 07:22 pm »

Wayner's comments are really the crux of the matter. Unipivot arms that lack any provisions for stability in the horizontal direction will have real problems tracking less than flat records.

The Well-Tempered arm is an example of a unipivot arm that gets it right.

As far as idler arm tables, they do tend to be older, restored pieces and those idler wheels can generate a ton of noise which is just annoying as hell.

Scottdazzle · « **Reply #16 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 07:30 pm »

Quote from: toobluvr on 7 Oct 2009, 05:10 pm

I know VPI is well respected for build, value and sonics. But over the years I have come across comments that they are just a tad dry and somewhat clinical and hi-fi'ish in character, and possibly not the best choice for a listener that prefers an enchanting, seductive and emotional listening experience.

Is this a fair assessment of the VPI sound? Is it's presentation a bit cool, matter of fact, and mechanical?

For example, are VPI background silences blueish and cool rather than a warmish jet black? It is the difference between a quiet warehouse and an empty church at midnight (or the warm and expectant hush of a concert hall right before a performance starts).

If one prizes tone, fluidity, bloom, harmonic texture and a sonic beauty that is organic and "whole" sounding, will VPI provide it?

I do like detail (natural), space, staging and other hi-fi attributes, but ultimately I wanna be seduced when I listen. I want an emotional listening experience, one in which I feel connected to the music and the performers. So I guess a slightly warm, embellished and romantic sound is preferred.

Obviously, I listen with my heart and soul rather than my brain. Involvement and musicality are what I seek.

I am open to all suggestions. New MSRP in the $1000 to $3000 range for table and arm.

Thanks in advance for all input, comments and recs!

~John

My VPI Classic tracks like a champ! It hasn't met an LP yet that it can't play. Regarding Wayner's concern about constant azimuth rolling, I think that if the stylus is making good groove contact and the compliance is sufficient that this should not happen except with seriously warped records.

Scott

twitch54 · « **Reply #17 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 07:41 pm »

Quote from: Scotthobby on 7 Oct 2009, 07:30 pm

Regarding Wayner's concern about constant azimuth rolling, I think that if the stylus is making good groove contact and the compliance is sufficient

Agreed, my Aries III (10.5 arm, Dynavector 20x) has never given me a ounce of fear

Quote

that this should not happen except with seriously warped records.

I utilize the 'perf ring' so this too is not an issue.

Curly Woods · « **Reply #18 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 08:40 pm »

Quote from: bluemike on 7 Oct 2009, 05:26 pm

In my opinion no ..i'm sure others will disagree
i've heard many vpi setups in my stereo group and they all seem to have that analytical mechanical sound
this is strictly subjective and somewhat system dependant !

Take a look at the Nottingham tables they may be a better match they are on the other extreme in terms of musical presentation
chocolate or vanilla pick your flavour

The Nottingham tables do exhibit a richer tone to my ears overall. They simply are smoother and more liquid sounding to my ears vs SOTA's or VPI's. Now that is not to say that many will prefer the latter two tables for their sound. I was a Linn owner for many years, and really enjoyed the Nottingham in my system. It had a better foundation to its sound also over the Linn.

If you like tubes, like I do, the Nottingham's are superb tables, bringing the "life and soul" out of your recordings. I have sold both the VPI and the SOTA's and they are grand tables without question, but they are a bit drier in their presentation vs. the Nottinghams. Not that one is really better than the other, they are simply different in their presentation.

toobluvr · « **Reply #19 on:** 7 Oct 2009, 08:47 pm »

Quote from: Curly Woods on 7 Oct 2009, 08:40 pm

Quote from: bluemike on 7 Oct 2009, 05:26 pm
In my opinion no ..i'm sure others will disagree
i've heard many vpi setups in my stereo group and they all seem to have that analytical mechanical sound
this is strictly subjective and somewhat system dependant !

Take a look at the Nottingham tables they may be a better match they are on the other extreme in terms of musical presentation
chocolate or vanilla pick your flavour

The Nottingham tables do exhibit a richer tone to my ears overall. They simply are smoother and more liquid sounding to my ears vs SOTA's or VPI's. Now that is not to say that many will prefer the latter two tables for their sound. I was a Linn owner for many years, and really enjoyed the Nottingham in my system. It had a better foundation to its sound also over the Linn.

If you like tubes, like I do, the Nottingham is a superb table bringing the "life and soul" out of your recordings. I have sold both the VPI and the SOTA's and they are grand tables without question, but they are a bit drier in their presentation vs. the Nottinghams. Not that one is really better than the other, they are simply different in their presentation.

Thanks Curly...very helpful!

This is the type of informative and fair comparo that I was looking for.