[Wayne1]

The DAM got together at Jerry's house yesterday afternoon for a little tuning session. Jerry has had his VMPS Larger Sub in his system for long enough to break in and now it was time to fine tune it.

This is the sort of job that Tyson and Jason are very suited for.

Mike Galusha was over and brought his Cornet pre amp, I brought mine, some vinyl and Jerry's AVA T7 that I had replaced a good portion of the stock wire and AC cord with NITRO wire and changed some parts in.

Jerry had on hand a pair of modded Denon DVD-2900's. One was done by Parts Connexion and the other by someone up in the Pacific NW whose company I cannot remember. The PNW was using a tube output section while the PC was solid state.

I listened to the tube one for a little bit before everyone got there and thought it sounded nice but was very boomy. We put in the PC and the bass was very tight but the sound also changed to VERY dry and analytical.

The rest of the guys showed up then and Jacon started the tuning with a slight lowering of the mids and turning down of the sub level. It sounded fairly nice but still far too dry. We put the tubed player back in and the mids just opened up and energized the entire system. The low end was a lot more boomy and loose, however. Jason added quite a bit more Mortite to the subs passive and with a little give and take and more adjustment of the the woofer level on the crossover, soon got it dialed in.

Tyson had brought over his recently updated AVA T7 preamp with the new regulator circuit. We put that in the system to compre with the rewired piece. I will say that the new regulator circuit did add a tighter bass to the already great sound of the T7. As far as comparisons between the two pieces go, I will leave that to the rest of the group, as I may be a bit biased about it . Let's just say that we used Jerry's preamp for the rest of the session

We then switched over to Vinyl. We listened to the phono section of the T7, Mike's Cornet and mine. Mike's had a pair of Jensen step-up transformers built in and the T7 and mine were using just standard amounts of phono gain. The two Cornets sounded very close to each other. I would put a goodly amount of the difference down to the different tubes used. There was quite a distinct difference between the Cornets and the AVA. We tended to prefer the Cornets. One thing that was extremely clear was that all of the Vinyl we listened to was more realistic sounding than the digital sources. Of course we listened to Ray Brown's Soular Energy on Audiophile Master Records and Billie Holiday's Songs For Distingue Lovers on Classic Records 45 RPM release.

Jason was dying of starvation by that time, so Jerry ordered in some pizza. I gathered up my toys and headed out. Hopefully the rest of the guys will chime in with their impressions.

It was very good to see the guys and have a listening session again after so long a lay off. Hopefully we will be getting together again soon. I do have the modded Panny receiver I would like their thoughts on and I believe Mike has done some mods to his system that we need to check out.

[zybar]

Sounds like a fun time for all...

What was the analog setup?

Not suprised that analog was preferred over the Denon players  

GW

[mgalusha]

What was the analog setup?

I believe Gerry's analog setup is a Eurolab table with a Morch UP-4 arm and a Scheu cartridge. The Scheu is customized version of the Benz Glider. The table is resting on a Symposium base. A very nice rig.

The rest of his setup is the Van Alstine T7 preamp or a Musical Fidelity preamp, a Marchand XM-44 XO, Parasound JC-1 amps driving VMPS RM-40's from 40Hz up and an Aragon driving a VMPS Larger below 40Hz. I believe all the cabling is by Bolder. He also has a pair of Monster power conditioners. I'm fairly certain they provide balanced power. Room has 8th Nerve treatments and some large absorptive panels.

The difference between the two Denon players was quite significant. I arrived after Wayne and Gerry had put the Parts Connexion modded unit in the system and they both said how loose the bass was with the tubed unit. Jason is blessed with an excellent pair of ears and did a bit of tuning to the '40's and the sub and while the system was sounding pretty good it didn't seem as good as it should be.

Wayne swapped the other Denon back in and the difference was pretty shocking. The midrange was much smoother and a lot more pleasing to the ear, at least my ears. The bass was pretty loose and somewhat boomy. Everyone agreed the tubed unit was much better sounding and that the speakers should be tuned to work with that machine. Once again Jason and Tyson assaulted Gerry's speakers. After about 1/2 hour to work they had things sounding very very good.

One of the discs we listened to was Kodo - Mondo Head on SACD. While playing this on the PC modded unit it sounded very different than I am used to. I have this disc and am quite familiar with the sound and it's a very good recording with some tremendous bass. With the tubed Denon and the speakers re-tuned it sounded very different and much more like what I am used to hearing. I have also heard this disc on Jason's system and the sound of this disc was again more like what I had heard before.

It was then time compare Gerry's T7 preamp to Tyson's T7R. Tyson's preamp had be plugged in and powered up for about an hour, so it was warmed up nicely. The T7R had tighter bass but in other areas everyone preferred the T7 that Wayne had rewired. The midrange was the key and it was simply more realistic sounding.

We then fired up the turntable. First using the phono stage in Gerry's T7 and playing the Ray Brown Soular Energy LP. It sounded very good and was better than either of the digital setups but in my mind something wasn't right but I couldn't put my finger on it. We then put my Cornet phono stage in. My Cornet is built using Auricaps for coupling and RELCaps for the RIAA and bypass locations. It has a pair of Jensen step up transformers mounted inside the chassis. I chose to mount the transformers inside the chassis to eliminate the additional cables and connectors. The downside is the preamp is only suited to low output cartridges. I have Sovtek 12AX7LPS and a NOS Mullard CV-4003 for the 12AU7 position. Rectifier is a NOS GE.

It took only a few seconds to realize what wasn't right previously. On the track we were listening to is some light brush work on the drums and it was pretty much missing in action with the T7. The sound stage was also much deeper with the Cornet and Ray's bass had a much more physical presence.

We then put Wayne's Cornet in the system. His has Riken Ohm resistors, Jensen coupling caps and REL Caps for bypass and RIAA positions. He also  has some nice JJ caps for the B+ filtering. His unit does not have step up transformers built in. Given the abundance of gain we had with my unit we decided to try his without any step up transformers. The T7 provided plenty of gain and we had no trouble getting plenty of volume. The Cornet's sounded similar but different. As Wayne mentioned much of this is likely the difference in tubes and he has some very nice NOS Tungsram 12AX7 in his unit. I was fortunate enough to have the sweet spot for vinyl session and IMO the differences between the two Cornets were that Wayne's Cornet was tighter in the bass but did not provide as much of a sense of physical presence of Ray Brown's bass. The midrange on Wayne's Cornet was smoother and the brushwork sound "brushier" according to Tyson. The piano with my unit had a lot of bite to it and somewhat less with Wayne's Cornet. I believe the rendition of the piano  provided by Wayne's Cornet was more accurate but both were very good.

Both Cornet's sounded excellent and anyone who chooses to build or purchase a Cornet will be rewarded with excellent sound. They seem to be quite tunable depending on the choice of tubes and one should be able to get the sound desired with little trouble.

mike g

[zybar]

Thanks for the additional info Mike.

One of things I am trying to decide is whether I keep my T7 preamp and have it upgraded (possibly by Wayne or by Steve at Empirical Audio - he did a great job on my Sony S-7700 transport) or go with a Bent Passive preamp.

I am also trying to decide if I want to add a Larger sub(s) to my RM 40's.  As I have owned the 40's less than a month, I am still in the process of learning how to tune them.

Wish I had the ears at of this group to help there

Too bad you guys all live 2000 miles away.

Anyway, I make it out to the Denver/Bolder area once a year, maybe on my next trip out I can meet you guys?

GW

[mgalusha]

Anyway, I make it out to the Denver/Bolder area once a year, maybe on my next trip out I can meet you guys?

Sounds good. Not sure when you come to town but perhaps you can make it out to the Rocky Mountain AudioFest in October. More info: http://www.audiofest.net

In regards to the T7 or the Bent. We were fortunate enough to hear both in the same system and both were very good. In the system I heard them in everyone preferred the T7 as it provided better dynamics. I really liked the sound of the Bent and would have liked to hear it in my system but didn't get the chance. Like most things I think it's very system dependent and you really need to see how it works for you. I don't know if John Chapman has a return policy but by all reports he's a great person to do business with.

mike g

[zybar]

Mike,

Thanks for the info on Bent vs T7.

I am going to have Horsehead come over on Tuesday and he will be bringing his Placette passive preamp.  I figure this will give me a good idea of how a passive will sound in my system.

I have talked with John already and can confirm that he is a very good guy!  

If I go with Bent, he will build me a custom version with three outputs.  On one of the outputs I will have a dact volume control in order to control volume in my bi-amp setup of the 40's.

I will look into making it out in October.  My buddy lives just outside of Bolder and I might be coming out there in the next month or so...

GW

[mgalusha]

Cool, let us know if you're going to be in town.

mike g

[Tyson]

Well, since most others have gone over the session pretty much in detail, I will focus on the areas that I was most interested in, namely my AVA T7 SLR pre versus Gerry's AVA T7 SL (no R upgrade) modded by Bolder Cables.  My unit of course had the regulated power supply upgrade, which I am quite happy with (see my posts in the Van Alstine Circle).  

We listened to Gerry's Bolder modded T7 SL for most of the time I was there, and about halfway through the session we slipped my T7R for a direct A-B comparison.  Well, to put it bluntly there was no comparison, my T7 SLR got its little hiney kicked bad.  Sure, mine had better bass and better dynamics, but the all important midrange was all in the modded T7's favor.  The difference in sound was very much like the difference between a decent CD setup versus a very good vinyl setup.  The Bolder modded T7 just had a smoother, more analog sound, more pleasing, more involving, and far better focused, especially with vocals (in comparison my T7R had a little bit of a "phasey" sound with vocals).  

From what Wayne said, the mods done to Gerry's preamp are more extensive than merely re-wiring it, but also include removing inexpensive parts and replacing them with premium quality parts at critical point of the signal path.  I know that Frank will probably disagree with my saying this, but these mods accounted for a dramatic difference in sound, for the better.  Looking at the parts quality in the stock unit, it is amazing that it sounds as good as it does.  Which goes to my theory, that Frank can get sound that good is because he is incredibly talented at circuit design, and even with cheap parts he gets amazingly good sound for the money that these units cost.  I now (after and A-B comparison) know that they can be improved signifigantly with a few after-market mods (if done by someone that is highly competent).  

So, to sum up, the "R" upgrade is definitely worth it because it improves bass and dynamics to a very noticable degree, while the Bolder mods improve other areas, like smoothness, focus, coherence.  I'm not sure what the cost will be to do the mods, but I know that I will be getting it done to my unit as soon as I scrape together some cash.

[Pez]

I'll add my God-like observations now.  I thought the Denon mod unit was very nice. Definately the highlight as far as overall improvments.  I could only balance the system to sound so good, but the overall sound was pretty dry, but once we put the modded denon in the whole system sound awesome. I thought it really bridge the gap between Gerry's analog section and his digital section, of course I prefered the smoothness of the analog, but the digital portion sounded down right acceptable.  

I am with everyone else on the mods wayne performed sounded superior to the upgraded pre-amp from AVA.

After awhile of listening (after mike and wayne left) I noticed that the lower woofer had a loose rubber surround.  We ended the session with me performing major surgery on the woofer, I hope it doesnt void your warranty Gerry. That's what you get for having me over.

I'm a man of few words....... are there any questions?

[spectralman]

Hi Tyson,

I read your comments on the T7 comparison with great interest, as I will be receiving my upgraded (to R status) T& hopefully in the next week.  

If you have the T7R modded like Gerry's, does that void the warranty from AVA?  Also, please let me know of the cost and other pasticulars of this mod as I may be interested in going this route myself.

[Tyson]

I know that Wayne is officially supported for changing out the power cord, that will not void the warrantee, but for the rest (replacing internal wiring and some caps/resistors), I have no idea.  As for cost, I don't know either as I haven't talked to Wayne about it yet, I need to scrape together some cash first before I give him the T7 to work on.

[randog]

From what Wayne said, the mods done to Gerry's preamp are more extensive than merely re-wiring it, but also include removing inexpensive parts and replacing them with premium quality parts at critical point of the signal path. I know that Frank will probably disagree with my saying this, but these mods accounted for a dramatic difference in sound, for the better. Looking at the parts quality in the stock unit, it is amazing that it sounds as good as it does. Which goes to my theory, that Frank can get sound that good is because he is incredibly talented at circuit design, and even with cheap parts he gets amazingly good sound for the money that these units cost. I now (after and A-B comparison) know that they can be improved signifigantly with a few after-market mods (if done by someone that is highly competent).
...

This is disheartening to me.    From what I've studied it does appear that Frank is a master circuit designer for audio, but I don't consider this preamp inexpensive (I know, I know... consider me in the minor leagues) and I certainly don't consider it a mass-production item. With these mods this is now a $2K preamp (minimum), right? I would expect any significant benefit by the use of better componentry (within reason, of course) would be done at the factory level and it certainly wouldn't have the same financial impact of having it reworked.

What am I missing here?

Randog

[Wayne1]

Mr. Van Alstine and his engineer are very talented circuit designers. When ever anyone builds a product, they are faced with limitation on parts cost to meet a total price point on the end product.

The AVA T7 uses Dale-Vishay resistors. These are a very good quality resistors and are certainly better than the generic metal film resistors that mass marketed brands use. I feel that the sound of the Riken Ohm resistors are better. However they do carry a premium price of 200 times what the Dale-Vishay cost. The capacitors used in the signal path are all very good and good quality. The Multicap RTX is better quality but again at a MUCH higher cost. Again you are looking at a price difference of 200 times.

The Noble volume controls cost around $15.00. A DACT attenuator is $150.00. All of these "audiophile" grade parts do add up. Plus then you have to add in parts mark-up, labor, and advertising and rent etc, etc.

While you consider $2K expensive for a preamp, to build one with that level of audiophile parts, you would be looking closer to $20K.

I do believe that Mr. Van Alstine and his staff should be VERY proud of what they have built and how great it sounds for the money. Perhaps at some point AVA WILL offer a signature version with more expensive parts.
After all, as pointed out on the AVA forum, Dynaco was so entranced with Mr. Van Alstine's mod to the Stereo 400, they came out with their own version, the 416.

[randog]

Wayne, thanks for the explanation. 200X cost on selective parts do not fall within my boundary of "within reason" and makes better sense to me now.

I was not trying to dis AVA, but the previous posts made it sound like the components were not as they could be. And by "could-be" I'm again referring to "within reason" for a limited production item.

Your mods sound like more than a few bills to me, eh?  

Mr. Van Alstine and his engineer are very talented circuit designers. When ever anyone builds a product, they are faced with limitation on parts cost to meet a total price point on the end product.

Don't I know it. (I have a Product Design business)

After all, as pointed out on the AVA forum, Dynaco was so entranced with Mr. Van Alstine's mod to the Stereo 400, they came out with their own version, the 416....

Yes, and am I the only one who sees the irony in that of the master tweaker getting tweaked?  

Randog

[Turk]

For those interested in a very, very good universal player, the unit we listened to is a Denon DVD-2900 from Exemplar Audio (there is a website).  John Tucker is the man who owns the Co. and does the work.  He sells the complete modded unit or you can send yours in for the mods.

The DAM did a great job of tunning.  Jason(God) once again caused me to repair the woofer, a pain in the ass...it's working fine again.  

The Denon unit as it comes is loose in the bass, at least until you tune the 40's.  The mids and highs, especially on SACD are as good as I have heard in digital.  It is, however, 3 1/2 times the price of the Mensa DIO, the DIO is a better value for redbook.

 Wayne's mods to the AVA were indeed a dramatic improvement in smoothness and transparency.  I just received a Dodd audio 2 piece Reference preamp.  The fun continues.  Oh, if you have an AVA component you has to have  a Bolder power cord.  They look so much better and sound so much better they are a bargain.

[mgalusha]

Keep us posted on how the new preamp sounds as it breaks in Gerry, it should be a very nice piece. Thanks again for the hospitality and I look forward to the next gathering.

mike g