[kingdeezie]

So, after reading Analognut's post about how there is supposed to be no sound with just the TT and the needle running, I decided to check it out...

I can hear the freakin thing from my listening position 11 feet away!!

This has to mean my alignment is screwed up right?

So what could this mean?

Is my cartridge not aligned properly in the headshell? Is my VTF, VTA, azimuth etc, etc, etc off?

Is my cart or needle broken?

I have the VTF set by a Shure gauge so I don't know if that could be it.

What should be my next step? What is a decent setup tool?

[Fido2]

Are you saying the tt is spinning and the tonearm is at rest on it's perch and then you hearing noise with the volume at a normal level? What sort of noise? Hum, pink noise what? What kind of cartridge and phono stage?

[bacobits1]

With the TT spinning and the needle playing with no volume through the speakers it is normal to get some noise off of the needle when close by the table.
Who ever said there is supposed to be NO sound at all is nuts.

Now, to hear that much noise from 11' away that is not normal. Go through the whole alignment set up process again something is wrong.

What table, and what cartridge?
I have noticed certain cartridges and arms doing it more than others.

D

[Wayner]

Analognut's post is only a theory and the effect can vary from table to table and tonearm to tonearm. Does the sound out of your speakers sound OK? If it is then I wouldn't worry about it.

Wayner

[jsaliga]

Does the sound out of your speakers sound OK? If it is then I wouldn't worry about it.

+1

--Jerome

[analognut]

Wayner is right. If the music sounds good I wouldn't worry about it. And btw, actually what I said was the less noise the better! But if your LPs "irritate" you I would look at alignment and examine the stylus for wear! I would imagine the amount of noise would also depend on the shape of the stylus, so a round, conical, or elliptical would be "noisier in the groove than more advance line designs.

[kingdeezie]

So I messed around with alignment a little more...

The first thing I noticed wrong was that the tracking force was like 2.50, which is bad considering my Dynavector is only supposed to track at 2.2 at most.

I re-adjusted the tracking, and I immediately was not happy. I moved the TT about a week and a half ago, and had gotten used to the bass, and didn't mind the attenuated highs. The re-adjusted sound was a lot "brighter."

I then decided to get the protractor out and readjust alignment as well. After about 30 minutes of fussing, I came to a pretty reasonable setting. I have a hard time getting it perfect as it should be according to the protractor.

I can still hear it when not amped, but the sound coming out of the speakers is OK.

I don't feel the bass guitar quite like I used to when the tracking was too heavy.

Could it be my VTA that is off? 

Adjusting it on my tonearm (Michell Tecnoarm) is something I can't quite figure out. There is supposed to be a nut on the bottom of it, but getting to it is not easy for my hands. 

Any other thoughts?

[analognut]

  >The re-adjusted sound was a lot "brighter".
The reason for the brighter sound is that when you lowered VTF the stylus rake angle (SRA) changed. Decreasing VTF causes the angle of the cantilever to change and the stylus is tipped ahead. If the sound is too bright then yes, changing VTA by lowering arm should tame the high end. Which cart are you using? If low-output MC, then using a lower loading will also help control the high end.

   >I have a hard time getting it perfect as it should be according to the protractor.
I assume you mean when you're centered on one of the null points you can't get the other one to line up properly? If so, then move the cart slightly forward or backward in the headshell. If it still won't line up then the cart needs to be twisted very slightly in the headshell. Don't worry if cart is not exactly perpendicular to headshell, that's not important. What's important is that your alignment is spot on at the two null points. Furthermore, alignment should be done by aligning so the stylus is parallel to the grid lines, rather than worrying if cart body is parallel. Make sure anti-skating is disabled when doing this.

You can go here:  http://www.vinylengine.com/library/michell.shtml to find the instructions for your Michell arm. You need to register and log in for the downloads to become available.

[vinylphilemag]

I then decided to get the protractor out and readjust alignment as well. After about 30 minutes of fussing, I came to a pretty reasonable setting. I have a hard time getting it perfect as it should be according to the protractor.

I agree with Analognut's assessment, and would add that properly aligning a cartridge can take an hour or so.  It's a fiddly, exacting task, so don't worry about not having success after 30 mins.  It's taken me an an hour or more to exactly align a cartridge at least once in the past, so I know the pain you're going through! 

[kingdeezie]

First off, thanks everyone for your help!

Okay..

Now I am 

The protractor I am using is the one that came with my tecnoarm, and it only helps you align the cartridge centered with the headshell...

Is this not appropriate?

What are these "null" points I need to be mindful of? Is there a recommended protractor I should be investing in?

[analognut]

Howdy kingdeezie,
I'm not familiar with the Michel Tecno arm and can't comment on its alignment tool. My guess is no reason it shouldn't work fine. You mentioned you were having trouble getting the alignment perfect on the protractor and I assumed you were working with something that utilizes "standard" inner & outer null points. When it's impossible to get both null points spot on that's an indicator the cart needs to be twisted slightly in the headshell.

I recommend downloading a protractor and using it to double-check your alignment from the Michel template. Hopefully both systems will yield the same result.

Since you're confused about protractors I'll very briefly describe the principle here:

The record grooves are cut with a linear tracking arm. (Most) all playback arms are fixed on a post and trace in an arc, thus there is tracking error at the stylus. The two null points on the arc protractor are the only two points in the arc of the playback arm which can fall precisely on the original path of the linear cutter. Therefore at all other points of the arc there is an amount of distortion which cannot be overcome.

This method of using an arc protractor to align to the null points is fairly standard practice. A few arms, SME for instance, and apparently your Michell arm have proprietary alignment tools you can use. In addition to the protractor that's made for my SME arm I also use a DB Systems DB-10, which is nothing more than a glorified protractor. Being able to observe my alignment is correct on both systems gives me greater confidence that the alignment is precise. For that reason I recommend downloading a protractor and giving it a try.

The best downloadable protractor I've ever come across is here: http://conradhoffman.com/chsw.htm . For a complete description see my post from several days ago in the Vinyl Circle here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=71956.0 To me, one of the coolest things about this protractor is it has 200mm reference printed on the protractor which you measure to verify that your printer is printing correctly. If not, you can correct for your printer. Very cool. Read the entire readme file that comes with it. The readme initially looks like it's only a log of the various improvements to the program, but if you keep scrolling down there is a TON of info there and many tips. To print your first template just click on "Typical" groove radii, and I would also click on Lofgren A alignment. Lofgren A is synonymous with Baerwald, and perhaps what is most typically used.  Lofgren B and Stevenson use different calculations to arrive at the null point data and can also be used. You can play around with this stuff all day!   

[analognut]

Kingdeezie,
Here's a link to a page I kind of like that explains how to correctly set VTA and VTF. This is from a guy who designs and sells what is arguably some of the finest vinyl playback available anywhere at any price, so I wouldn't think you could go too far wrong following his advice: http://www.walkeraudio.com/fine_tuning_your_turntable.htm   

[neobop]

The Tecnoarm is a reworked Rega. The null points are close to Stevenson, but not exactly the same. So your factory protractor will not be in agreement with any standard protractor. Baerwald (most popular) will require moving your cartridge a couple of mm further forward in the headshell. If Baerwald doesn't work out, Stevenson (optimised for inner groove) surely will.

VTA adjustment on Rega arms is done with shims, unless an aftermarket device is used. I'm not sure about the Tecnoarm.
Frank